What to look for (or not) in used track car
07-04-2023, 05:43 PM
#1
What to look for (or not) in used track car
As part of researching GT3/GT4 options for a car that will spend good time on track (but still street legal) I am thinking whether an car that has been already been setup for track should be considered. My initial reaction is to get either new or used car that either has not been tracked or maybe once/twice but not regularly and set it up for track over time. The other option is to find a car that has already been largely setup as that would save money and hassle. Any thoughts on one way or the other and if track car is being considered - what to look out for and best practices?
Ideally it would be either seller I know/trust or inspection place would be reputable enough to give a full honest report. I had an unfortunate experience some years ago where seller recommended a place which was legit - but they just did not do good job and did not disclose some issues they knew of (as I learned when they serviced car later) because they did not want to upset the seller who was a long time repeat customer. I know Porsche dealers "crafting" service records in way that did not highlight issues to show up in service reports - I can easily see some visible track damage being "missed" in inspection report. And there is a good chance car will be out of town far enough to make it a hassle to try to see in person.
I have a track car (not p-car) for many years by now and while I take good care of it I know track takes serious toll on everything mechanical... Mine is simple/inexpensive to maintain/fix but GT3/GT4 are a different story altogether.
Any words of wisdom? Would you buy a regularly tracked car? If so - how would you go about it?
Thank you
Ideally it would be either seller I know/trust or inspection place would be reputable enough to give a full honest report. I had an unfortunate experience some years ago where seller recommended a place which was legit - but they just did not do good job and did not disclose some issues they knew of (as I learned when they serviced car later) because they did not want to upset the seller who was a long time repeat customer. I know Porsche dealers "crafting" service records in way that did not highlight issues to show up in service reports - I can easily see some visible track damage being "missed" in inspection report. And there is a good chance car will be out of town far enough to make it a hassle to try to see in person.
I have a track car (not p-car) for many years by now and while I take good care of it I know track takes serious toll on everything mechanical... Mine is simple/inexpensive to maintain/fix but GT3/GT4 are a different story altogether.
Any words of wisdom? Would you buy a regularly tracked car? If so - how would you go about it?
Thank you
07-04-2023, 06:17 PM
#2
Drifting
For a race car, it always seems like it takes a lot of time to wokr out the gremlins of a freshy build one from teh ground up. There is something to be said for a used race car.... but there is also usually a reason someone is selling it, and finding that reason can be key. Maybe everything is 1 race away from needing a rebuilt, maybe everything is worn out, maybe 60% of the car is bondo (spec miatas are often like that). Maybe they just bought the wrong car. Usually even with all that it still makes sense to buy a used race car.
Track cars though I think are different. I generally do not want someone's track car. First, they're often setup wonky. I hate driving newbie HPDE guys 'track prepped car' because they're often undrivable. 2nd, when their a vets car they're often driven hard and worn out. I have 2 friends that tracked 2 different hondas very hard for about 5-7 years. Those cars body's were worn out. Stuff was starting to separate on one. Now those were cheaper honda/acuras (and honda never designed them to go racing), but both were one owner cars that weren't technically that old when they were dumping them. However, most people who track Porsches do not drive like those 2 guys do. Most cars I see at PCA events are getting driven at like 70% and aren't even rolling the edge of the tire with a lack of proper camber, so it really depends.
IF i was going to look at buying one, over rev report, and then just look at it and if it looks like it's had a hard life for interior and exterior wear and tear, it's had a really hard life. If it looks like it rolled out of a show room inside and out, it's probably not too bad. Ask them how many track days it has had, and assume it's double that. Nowadays most people have track videos, and I'd see if they'd show a video. You should be able to tell a lot from their driving how hard they are on it too.
Also if they'r selling it with needing brakes, tires, etc, I'd potentially say they're selling it because they're not looking forward to dumping a lot of money in maintaining it further and squeezed every last bit of consumable out of it before they planned to dump it. I'd also say if they'r selling it with fresh everything consumable, that is equally a big red flag to me (sticker tires, new brakes, fresh fluids, etc), as they're potentially hiding something they know about it by making it look like tehy always maintain it tip top condition (polishing a turd). If its just one consumable thing then that's probably more them selling it as something else more interesting came up and there is likely nothing wrong with it. That's my thoughts anyway on how stuff gets sold.
Track cars though I think are different. I generally do not want someone's track car. First, they're often setup wonky. I hate driving newbie HPDE guys 'track prepped car' because they're often undrivable. 2nd, when their a vets car they're often driven hard and worn out. I have 2 friends that tracked 2 different hondas very hard for about 5-7 years. Those cars body's were worn out. Stuff was starting to separate on one. Now those were cheaper honda/acuras (and honda never designed them to go racing), but both were one owner cars that weren't technically that old when they were dumping them. However, most people who track Porsches do not drive like those 2 guys do. Most cars I see at PCA events are getting driven at like 70% and aren't even rolling the edge of the tire with a lack of proper camber, so it really depends.
IF i was going to look at buying one, over rev report, and then just look at it and if it looks like it's had a hard life for interior and exterior wear and tear, it's had a really hard life. If it looks like it rolled out of a show room inside and out, it's probably not too bad. Ask them how many track days it has had, and assume it's double that. Nowadays most people have track videos, and I'd see if they'd show a video. You should be able to tell a lot from their driving how hard they are on it too.
Also if they'r selling it with needing brakes, tires, etc, I'd potentially say they're selling it because they're not looking forward to dumping a lot of money in maintaining it further and squeezed every last bit of consumable out of it before they planned to dump it. I'd also say if they'r selling it with fresh everything consumable, that is equally a big red flag to me (sticker tires, new brakes, fresh fluids, etc), as they're potentially hiding something they know about it by making it look like tehy always maintain it tip top condition (polishing a turd). If its just one consumable thing then that's probably more them selling it as something else more interesting came up and there is likely nothing wrong with it. That's my thoughts anyway on how stuff gets sold.
Last edited by Zhao; 07-04-2023 at 06:39 PM.
07-04-2023, 06:24 PM
#3
I have some perspectives on this but I'd probably start with some questions that will help guide the type of responses:
1. how often do you track per year? do you ever plan to race, or just track days?
2. Do you plan to tow or drive to the track?
3. You say "streetable" track car... it's tough to do both well. Are you willing to give up a lot of streetability? For example, I've seen people driving half-caged cars with no interior, no AC on the street. It sounds more like you want a car that is more like stock GT car with race seats, suspension, brakes etc. Right?
4. how long do you typically keep cars like this?
1. how often do you track per year? do you ever plan to race, or just track days?
2. Do you plan to tow or drive to the track?
3. You say "streetable" track car... it's tough to do both well. Are you willing to give up a lot of streetability? For example, I've seen people driving half-caged cars with no interior, no AC on the street. It sounds more like you want a car that is more like stock GT car with race seats, suspension, brakes etc. Right?
4. how long do you typically keep cars like this?
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Zhao (07-04-2023)
07-04-2023, 06:49 PM
#4
I have some perspectives on this but I'd probably start with some questions that will help guide the type of responses:
1. how often do you track per year? do you ever plan to race, or just track days?
2. Do you plan to tow or drive to the track?
3. You say "streetable" track car... it's tough to do both well. Are you willing to give up a lot of streetability? For example, I've seen people driving half-caged cars with no interior, no AC on the street. It sounds more like you want a car that is more like stock GT car with race seats, suspension, brakes etc. Right?
4. how long do you typically keep cars like this?
1. how often do you track per year? do you ever plan to race, or just track days?
2. Do you plan to tow or drive to the track?
3. You say "streetable" track car... it's tough to do both well. Are you willing to give up a lot of streetability? For example, I've seen people driving half-caged cars with no interior, no AC on the street. It sounds more like you want a car that is more like stock GT car with race seats, suspension, brakes etc. Right?
4. how long do you typically keep cars like this?
1. I used to go about once/month but maybe 6 times/year may be a more norm. So far racing is not on the menu - but who knows in the future... I definitely don't see any full-blown heavy racing - don't have time / energy.
2. Drive. Towing my current car - want to take a break from logistics...
3. Think of GT3/GT4 w/ cage, bucket seats, some alignment work, appropriate brakes, appropriate tires. No hard core stuff. My current car is open wheel and I want to live on the other side of being able to run AC while waiting on grid line...
4. No good history. First "cheap" track car I kept for about 2-3 years. Current one about 5. If I get GT4 I'll likely upgrade to GT3 in few years if I continue enjoying it.
07-04-2023, 06:53 PM
#5
For a race car, it always seems like it takes a lot of time to wokr out the gremlins of a freshy build one from teh ground up. There is something to be said for a used race car.... but there is also usually a reason someone is selling it, and finding that reason can be key. Maybe everything is 1 race away from needing a rebuilt, maybe everything is worn out, maybe 60% of the car is bondo (spec miatas are often like that). Maybe they just bought the wrong car. Usually even with all that it still makes sense to buy a used race car.
Track cars though I think are different. I generally do not want someone's track car. First, they're often setup wonky. I hate driving newbie HPDE guys 'track prepped car' because they're often undrivable. 2nd, when their a vets car they're often driven hard and worn out. I have 2 friends that tracked 2 different hondas very hard for about 5-7 years. Those cars body's were worn out. Stuff was starting to separate on one. Now those were cheaper honda/acuras (and honda never designed them to go racing), but both were one owner cars that weren't technically that old when they were dumping them. However, most people who track Porsches do not drive like those 2 guys do. Most cars I see at PCA events are getting driven at like 70% and aren't even rolling the edge of the tire with a lack of proper camber, so it really depends.
IF i was going to look at buying one, over rev report, and then just look at it and if it looks like it's had a hard life for interior and exterior wear and tear, it's had a really hard life. If it looks like it rolled out of a show room inside and out, it's probably not too bad. Ask them how many track days it has had, and assume it's double that. Nowadays most people have track videos, and I'd see if they'd show a video. You should be able to tell a lot from their driving how hard they are on it too.
Also if they'r selling it with needing brakes, tires, etc, I'd potentially say they're selling it because they're not looking forward to dumping a lot of money in maintaining it further and squeezed every last bit of consumable out of it before they planned to dump it. I'd also say if they'r selling it with fresh everything consumable, that is equally a big red flag to me (sticker tires, new brakes, fresh fluids, etc), as they're potentially hiding something they know about it by making it look like tehy always maintain it tip top condition (polishing a turd). If it's just one consumable thing then that's probably more them selling it as something else more interesting came up and there is likely nothing wrong with it. That's my thoughts anyway on how stuff gets sold.
Track cars though I think are different. I generally do not want someone's track car. First, they're often setup wonky. I hate driving newbie HPDE guys 'track prepped car' because they're often undrivable. 2nd, when their a vets car they're often driven hard and worn out. I have 2 friends that tracked 2 different hondas very hard for about 5-7 years. Those cars body's were worn out. Stuff was starting to separate on one. Now those were cheaper honda/acuras (and honda never designed them to go racing), but both were one owner cars that weren't technically that old when they were dumping them. However, most people who track Porsches do not drive like those 2 guys do. Most cars I see at PCA events are getting driven at like 70% and aren't even rolling the edge of the tire with a lack of proper camber, so it really depends.
IF i was going to look at buying one, over rev report, and then just look at it and if it looks like it's had a hard life for interior and exterior wear and tear, it's had a really hard life. If it looks like it rolled out of a show room inside and out, it's probably not too bad. Ask them how many track days it has had, and assume it's double that. Nowadays most people have track videos, and I'd see if they'd show a video. You should be able to tell a lot from their driving how hard they are on it too.
Also if they'r selling it with needing brakes, tires, etc, I'd potentially say they're selling it because they're not looking forward to dumping a lot of money in maintaining it further and squeezed every last bit of consumable out of it before they planned to dump it. I'd also say if they'r selling it with fresh everything consumable, that is equally a big red flag to me (sticker tires, new brakes, fresh fluids, etc), as they're potentially hiding something they know about it by making it look like tehy always maintain it tip top condition (polishing a turd). If it's just one consumable thing then that's probably more them selling it as something else more interesting came up and there is likely nothing wrong with it. That's my thoughts anyway on how stuff gets sold.
07-04-2023, 07:15 PM
#6
WRONGLY ACCUSED!
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For a race car, it always seems like it takes a lot of time to wokr out the gremlins of a freshy build one from teh ground up. There is something to be said for a used race car.... but there is also usually a reason someone is selling it, and finding that reason can be key. Maybe everything is 1 race away from needing a rebuilt, maybe everything is worn out, maybe 60% of the car is bondo (spec miatas are often like that). Maybe they just bought the wrong car. Usually even with all that it still makes sense to buy a used race car.
Track cars though I think are different. I generally do not want someone's track car. First, they're often setup wonky. I hate driving newbie HPDE guys 'track prepped car' because they're often undrivable. 2nd, when their a vets car they're often driven hard and worn out. I have 2 friends that tracked 2 different hondas very hard for about 5-7 years. Those cars body's were worn out. Stuff was starting to separate on one. Now those were cheaper honda/acuras (and honda never designed them to go racing), but both were one owner cars that weren't technically that old when they were dumping them. However, most people who track Porsches do not drive like those 2 guys do. Most cars I see at PCA events are getting driven at like 70% and aren't even rolling the edge of the tire with a lack of proper camber, so it really depends.
IF i was going to look at buying one, over rev report, and then just look at it and if it looks like it's had a hard life for interior and exterior wear and tear, it's had a really hard life. If it looks like it rolled out of a show room inside and out, it's probably not too bad. Ask them how many track days it has had, and assume it's double that. Nowadays most people have track videos, and I'd see if they'd show a video. You should be able to tell a lot from their driving how hard they are on it too.
Also if they'r selling it with needing brakes, tires, etc, I'd potentially say they're selling it because they're not looking forward to dumping a lot of money in maintaining it further and squeezed every last bit of consumable out of it before they planned to dump it. I'd also say if they'r selling it with fresh everything consumable, that is equally a big red flag to me (sticker tires, new brakes, fresh fluids, etc), as they're potentially hiding something they know about it by making it look like tehy always maintain it tip top condition (polishing a turd). If its just one consumable thing then that's probably more them selling it as something else more interesting came up and there is likely nothing wrong with it. That's my thoughts anyway on how stuff gets sold.
Track cars though I think are different. I generally do not want someone's track car. First, they're often setup wonky. I hate driving newbie HPDE guys 'track prepped car' because they're often undrivable. 2nd, when their a vets car they're often driven hard and worn out. I have 2 friends that tracked 2 different hondas very hard for about 5-7 years. Those cars body's were worn out. Stuff was starting to separate on one. Now those were cheaper honda/acuras (and honda never designed them to go racing), but both were one owner cars that weren't technically that old when they were dumping them. However, most people who track Porsches do not drive like those 2 guys do. Most cars I see at PCA events are getting driven at like 70% and aren't even rolling the edge of the tire with a lack of proper camber, so it really depends.
IF i was going to look at buying one, over rev report, and then just look at it and if it looks like it's had a hard life for interior and exterior wear and tear, it's had a really hard life. If it looks like it rolled out of a show room inside and out, it's probably not too bad. Ask them how many track days it has had, and assume it's double that. Nowadays most people have track videos, and I'd see if they'd show a video. You should be able to tell a lot from their driving how hard they are on it too.
Also if they'r selling it with needing brakes, tires, etc, I'd potentially say they're selling it because they're not looking forward to dumping a lot of money in maintaining it further and squeezed every last bit of consumable out of it before they planned to dump it. I'd also say if they'r selling it with fresh everything consumable, that is equally a big red flag to me (sticker tires, new brakes, fresh fluids, etc), as they're potentially hiding something they know about it by making it look like tehy always maintain it tip top condition (polishing a turd). If its just one consumable thing then that's probably more them selling it as something else more interesting came up and there is likely nothing wrong with it. That's my thoughts anyway on how stuff gets sold.
The most expensive route to a race car is to build it yourself. If you can afford it, and take pleasure in the build, go right ahead. The most sensible route is to buy a used car and know what you are buying by doing your homework.
07-05-2023, 11:58 AM
#7
I agree with Todd (*sigh*). The most expensive part about buying another person’s track car are the things they didn’t know needed replacing. PPI for sure.
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ProCoach (07-05-2023)
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07-05-2023, 12:47 PM
#8
Burning Brakes
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Plusses and minuses to either approach.
Build your own:
You get it the way you want it.
You know it's done right. Or.... you know who f*cked it up!
But it'll be expensive, and trying to shave cost buying 'almost' what you want will only make it more expensive after you replace that with what you actually wanted in the first place.
If you start with something new, that'll be a huge cost right there. If you start with something used, you'll still need to go through the used car inspection process. Find an independent, performance oriented, marque specialist. And not where the car was previously serviced!
Also will take some time and effort to get it on track, and sorted out.
Buy one:
Wow, way cheaper. Performance parts add zero resale value to a car.
They probably lower it...
Look for a car you want, with mods you would be making anyway.
Look it over closely. Is it tidy? That might be the biggest clue. If there's anything ratty about it. it's probably not what you're after.
Same inspection process as above. If it's good to go, you'll be on track in no time.
Look at the higher dollar offerings, don't buy someone's bargain basement sh*tbox, and then have to go through it.
If it doesn't need to be a Porsche, there are a lot of fine 'enthusiast' options to choose from, many with the same performance mods you'd want.
FRZ/BRZ and C5/C6/C7 come to mind. I scooped up a track prepped C6Z06 off ebay for pennies on the dollar.
Build your own:
You get it the way you want it.
You know it's done right. Or.... you know who f*cked it up!
But it'll be expensive, and trying to shave cost buying 'almost' what you want will only make it more expensive after you replace that with what you actually wanted in the first place.
If you start with something new, that'll be a huge cost right there. If you start with something used, you'll still need to go through the used car inspection process. Find an independent, performance oriented, marque specialist. And not where the car was previously serviced!
Also will take some time and effort to get it on track, and sorted out.
Buy one:
Wow, way cheaper. Performance parts add zero resale value to a car.
They probably lower it...
Look for a car you want, with mods you would be making anyway.
Look it over closely. Is it tidy? That might be the biggest clue. If there's anything ratty about it. it's probably not what you're after.
Same inspection process as above. If it's good to go, you'll be on track in no time.
Look at the higher dollar offerings, don't buy someone's bargain basement sh*tbox, and then have to go through it.
If it doesn't need to be a Porsche, there are a lot of fine 'enthusiast' options to choose from, many with the same performance mods you'd want.
FRZ/BRZ and C5/C6/C7 come to mind. I scooped up a track prepped C6Z06 off ebay for pennies on the dollar.
Last edited by Nowanker; 07-05-2023 at 12:51 PM.
07-05-2023, 04:12 PM
#9
Drifting
Respectfully, I would say the issues raised here are concerns when buying someone else's track car. What you need is a really good shop to give you a proper PPI. I have only bought other people's race car, but I have always bought them from people I know, and gotten a full PPI before committing.
The most expensive route to a race car is to build it yourself. If you can afford it, and take pleasure in the build, go right ahead. The most sensible route is to buy a used car and know what you are buying by doing your homework.
The most expensive route to a race car is to build it yourself. If you can afford it, and take pleasure in the build, go right ahead. The most sensible route is to buy a used car and know what you are buying by doing your homework.
However, in regards to inspections: in my experience there is really only so much a mechanic can check, and when it comes to a race car, it's even less. Some problems are only evident under race conditions and even hard hard hard street driving won't be enough (when my race car was new it was still technically street legal, and i was overheating on the track. I did a 15 minute drive of a back farm highway WOT hard braking WOT hard braking non stop for that entire time, and concluded my fix fixed the car. 5 minutes into a race, it was overheating again.). There will always be a good amount of risk buying a used race car. I also stick to dealing with locals I know for the most part too. I trust the people I trust to not sell me junk or disclose what they know.
I classify track cars different from race cars though. To me, track cars are street legal things that probably just have bolt ons and suspension, maybe light home brew aero and some interior missing. Even my basic Improved touring car I think i've touched virtually every bolt on it. So to me a track day car is relatively easy to build yourself by just tossing in suspension and some other stuff. you're not stripping the engine bay down to bare essentials or the entire car down to a bare shell, even if it's one step at a time. That's why I think buy the race car, build the track car.
Last edited by Zhao; 07-05-2023 at 04:14 PM.
07-05-2023, 07:14 PM
#10
I should clarify - I am not building / buying a race car but rather a street car that does pretty good on a track... And I would not buy an "abused" car - at least if I had any way of figuring it out.
07-05-2023, 10:41 PM
#11
take your time and hunt around. eventually you will find one. my 718S had heatsoak issues and i lived with them for about a year and a half while hunting for the next track car (DE, not racing) before finding the right car. i found that cars that have had any modifications done to them, particularly p-cars, for track purposes usually sell for less than an unmolested one. i looked at at least 7 cars in person and many more online before i found mine, and it was worth the wait. i found mine on PCA across the country, searched here for a reputable shop for a PPI, it came back great and i had it shipped to me.