Plug & Patch this tire for HPDE?
11-28-2023, 02:46 PM
#46
WRONGLY ACCUSED!
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Connecticut Valley Region
Posts: 14,517
Received 3,383 Likes
on
1,622 Posts
The advice was provided as a driver. If the advice had been provided as an attorney I would have attached an invoice.
The following 2 users liked this post by LuigiVampa:
CT_Peter (11-29-2023),
Veloce Raptor (11-28-2023)
11-28-2023, 02:46 PM
#47
Rennlist Member
RIP Fred.
11-28-2023, 03:30 PM
#48
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: The Swamps of Jersey/WGI/VIR...
Posts: 6,230
Received 1,457 Likes
on
1,010 Posts
11-28-2023, 04:12 PM
#49
11-28-2023, 04:16 PM
#50
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Formerly the DPRK, now seeking political asylum in Oregon
Posts: 953
Received 386 Likes
on
251 Posts
I do enjoy these tire threads...
They remind me of a funny incident when I was working for the BMW dealer, circa 1997.
We had an M3 in to warranty his warped discs. 2nd time, so the factory rep was in to figure it all out for us.
I wasn't involved, but after they had the car in the air, I overheard the rep and service manager saying things like "Dangerous! Worn out! Idiot! Completely bald!...."
So I wandered over to look.
He had a brand new set of CompTA R1s.
Brand new, as in installed that morning.
Foolishly, I told them "No, these are actually brand new. They're track tires, and they're made that way." I dug my thumbnail into the tread to show how soft they were, and said "Look at the tread wear number!"
Then I pointed to the little cartoon on the back, and said "That's a map of the Nurburgring. He's been running this on the track. That's why he's cooking the brakes..."
They looked at me like I was speaking Chinese and had 3 heads.
And went straight back to "Scary! Reckless! Can't release this car! Insane! Probably kill himself! Need to sign a release! Lunatic!..."
I laughed.
He probably never did figure it out.
They remind me of a funny incident when I was working for the BMW dealer, circa 1997.
We had an M3 in to warranty his warped discs. 2nd time, so the factory rep was in to figure it all out for us.
I wasn't involved, but after they had the car in the air, I overheard the rep and service manager saying things like "Dangerous! Worn out! Idiot! Completely bald!...."
So I wandered over to look.
He had a brand new set of CompTA R1s.
Brand new, as in installed that morning.
Foolishly, I told them "No, these are actually brand new. They're track tires, and they're made that way." I dug my thumbnail into the tread to show how soft they were, and said "Look at the tread wear number!"
Then I pointed to the little cartoon on the back, and said "That's a map of the Nurburgring. He's been running this on the track. That's why he's cooking the brakes..."
They looked at me like I was speaking Chinese and had 3 heads.
And went straight back to "Scary! Reckless! Can't release this car! Insane! Probably kill himself! Need to sign a release! Lunatic!..."
I laughed.
He probably never did figure it out.
The following users liked this post:
LuigiVampa (11-28-2023)
11-28-2023, 04:25 PM
#51
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Formerly the DPRK, now seeking political asylum in Oregon
Posts: 953
Received 386 Likes
on
251 Posts
Unless I missed something on their website, they say nothing about track use. Implying no restrictions.
They know how these tires are used, and they're marketed to a specific audience.
If it was a concern to them they would certainly have issued a warning. For sure they'd want to protect themselves from all those lawsuits that would arise.
Unlike dying from McDonald's food, crashing due to a tire failure caused by an authorized repair would be much easier to prove.
If I missed something in their repair instructions, please show it, and I'll apologize profusely for my mistaken beliefs.
They know how these tires are used, and they're marketed to a specific audience.
If it was a concern to them they would certainly have issued a warning. For sure they'd want to protect themselves from all those lawsuits that would arise.
Unlike dying from McDonald's food, crashing due to a tire failure caused by an authorized repair would be much easier to prove.
If I missed something in their repair instructions, please show it, and I'll apologize profusely for my mistaken beliefs.
The following 3 users liked this post by analogmike:
11-28-2023, 08:04 PM
#53
Unless I missed something on their website, they say nothing about track use. Implying no restrictions.
They know how these tires are used, and they're marketed to a specific audience.
If it was a concern to them they would certainly have issued a warning. For sure they'd want to protect themselves from all those lawsuits that would arise.
Unlike dying from McDonald's food, crashing due to a tire failure caused by an authorized repair would be much easier to prove.
If I missed something in their repair instructions, please show it, and I'll apologize profusely for my mistaken beliefs.
They know how these tires are used, and they're marketed to a specific audience.
If it was a concern to them they would certainly have issued a warning. For sure they'd want to protect themselves from all those lawsuits that would arise.
Unlike dying from McDonald's food, crashing due to a tire failure caused by an authorized repair would be much easier to prove.
If I missed something in their repair instructions, please show it, and I'll apologize profusely for my mistaken beliefs.
you got that backwards. please show us all where falken says it is acceptable to patch a track tire. not a street tire, a track tire. completely different worlds between them. please don't try the "if they didn't say it then it's ok" as that excuse holds no water. if your wife never said it wasn't ok to cheat on her it does not mean she will endorse it.
actually show where ANY tire company states it is acceptable to patch a track tire and continue using it on track. we all eagerly anticipate your findings. i'll help you a bit. here is a post from this very board by a rep from tirerack. note the bolded portion.
One of the last sights drivers want to see when they are getting ready to drive their vehicle is a flat tire. They realize that in addition to the immediate inconvenience of having to install their spare tire, they will have to get the punctured tire repaired. And if their tire is a steel belted radial (and whose isn't?), it must be repaired immediately to minimize potential long term deterioration started by the puncture.
A punctured speed rated tire brings with it additional considerations. While some tire manufacturers "allow" a tire to retain its speed rating if a specified multi-step repair procedure is followed exactly, most tire manufacturers reason that since they have no control over the damage caused by the puncture or the quality of the repair, they cannot confirm that the tire has retained its high speed capability. Therefore, their policy is that a punctured and repaired tire no longer retains its speed rating and should be treated as a non-speed rated tire.
"Guidelines allow the repair of punctures in a tire's tread area of up to 1/4" in diameter. Repair of larger tread punctures and of punctures to the tire's shoulder and sidewall areas are not recommended."
While almost any sharp object left on the road can cause a puncture, most are caused by small nails and screws (typically less than 1/4" in diameter).
Guidelines allow the repair of punctures in a tire's tread area of up to 1/4" in diameter. Repair of larger tread punctures and of punctures to the tire's shoulder and sidewall areas are not recommended.
There are three primary considerations when repairing a punctured tire. You need to evaluate the damage the object caused as it punctured the tire, reestablish an airtight seal of the tire's innerliner, and completely fill the path the object took through the tire. Typically a mushroom-shaped patch and plug combination repair is considered to be the best method of repairing a punctured steel belted radial.
Any repair attempted without removing the tire from the wheel is improper. Without inspecting the inside of the tire for hidden damage comes the risk of returning a weakened tire to service. Punctures in the tread area that looked repairable have revealed upon further investigation that the object that punctured the tire had been long enough to cut the tire's sidewall from the inside. Without dismounting the tire, the hidden damage would have been missed.
Simply plugging a tire from the outside without removing the tire from the wheel is improper. (If a tire is punctured while off-roading far away from civilization and a spare tire isn't available, a plug may serve as a temporary low speed solution that must be replaced with a proper repair as soon as possible upon returning to the road.)
Additionally, any repair that doesn't completely fill the path the object took through the tire is incomplete. While a patch on the inside of the tire reseals the innerliner, it does not fill the path of the puncture. This will allow moisture to reach the steel belts and/or the casing cords causing them to rust or deteriorate.
There are many different rubber compounds used in a tire. The tire's innerliner uses a special rubber compound that has the ability to better retain air. Once punctured, the innerliner must be cleaned, buffed, cemented, patched and coated to assure its ability to retain air has been restored. Since this can only be done from inside the tire, it's another reason that a plug-only repair is improper.
Continuing to drive on a tire with a slow leak may allow moisture to seep around the object and into the tire. This will reduce the probability that the tire can be repaired properly because the moisture will ultimately reach the internal steel and fabric cords used to reinforce the tire and possibly cause rust and loss of strength. To assure reestablishing a watertight seal the injury must be cleaned with a specially designed cutting drill that removes rust and sizes the injury properly to accept the rubber stem of the patch. Cemented in place, the stem will vulcanize with the tire to help prevent moisture from reaching the tire's reinforcing cords from the outside.
While indoor laboratory tests have shown that freshly punctured and properly repaired speed rated tires can still achieve high speeds, it is not recommended that repaired street tires, or punctured DOT-legal competition tires and racing slicks be used for track events.
How do you know which procedures a tire dealer uses? Ask them! But be aware that if they say they can repair a tire in 10 minutes for under $10 dollars without removing it from the wheel, they aren't following the Rubber Manufacturer's Association procedures. A correctly done flat repair that follows the multi-step repair procedures will take approximately 30 minutes and probably cost around $30. Driving on an improperly repaired tire is dangerous because it can further damage the tire and/or allow its strength to deteriorate over time. An improperly repaired tire driven at high speeds may suddenly fail, causing loss of vehicle control. Additionally, the use of an innertube as a substitute for a proper repair generates additional heat and should not be considered.
A punctured speed rated tire brings with it additional considerations. While some tire manufacturers "allow" a tire to retain its speed rating if a specified multi-step repair procedure is followed exactly, most tire manufacturers reason that since they have no control over the damage caused by the puncture or the quality of the repair, they cannot confirm that the tire has retained its high speed capability. Therefore, their policy is that a punctured and repaired tire no longer retains its speed rating and should be treated as a non-speed rated tire.
"Guidelines allow the repair of punctures in a tire's tread area of up to 1/4" in diameter. Repair of larger tread punctures and of punctures to the tire's shoulder and sidewall areas are not recommended."
While almost any sharp object left on the road can cause a puncture, most are caused by small nails and screws (typically less than 1/4" in diameter).
Guidelines allow the repair of punctures in a tire's tread area of up to 1/4" in diameter. Repair of larger tread punctures and of punctures to the tire's shoulder and sidewall areas are not recommended.
There are three primary considerations when repairing a punctured tire. You need to evaluate the damage the object caused as it punctured the tire, reestablish an airtight seal of the tire's innerliner, and completely fill the path the object took through the tire. Typically a mushroom-shaped patch and plug combination repair is considered to be the best method of repairing a punctured steel belted radial.
Any repair attempted without removing the tire from the wheel is improper. Without inspecting the inside of the tire for hidden damage comes the risk of returning a weakened tire to service. Punctures in the tread area that looked repairable have revealed upon further investigation that the object that punctured the tire had been long enough to cut the tire's sidewall from the inside. Without dismounting the tire, the hidden damage would have been missed.
Simply plugging a tire from the outside without removing the tire from the wheel is improper. (If a tire is punctured while off-roading far away from civilization and a spare tire isn't available, a plug may serve as a temporary low speed solution that must be replaced with a proper repair as soon as possible upon returning to the road.)
Additionally, any repair that doesn't completely fill the path the object took through the tire is incomplete. While a patch on the inside of the tire reseals the innerliner, it does not fill the path of the puncture. This will allow moisture to reach the steel belts and/or the casing cords causing them to rust or deteriorate.
There are many different rubber compounds used in a tire. The tire's innerliner uses a special rubber compound that has the ability to better retain air. Once punctured, the innerliner must be cleaned, buffed, cemented, patched and coated to assure its ability to retain air has been restored. Since this can only be done from inside the tire, it's another reason that a plug-only repair is improper.
Continuing to drive on a tire with a slow leak may allow moisture to seep around the object and into the tire. This will reduce the probability that the tire can be repaired properly because the moisture will ultimately reach the internal steel and fabric cords used to reinforce the tire and possibly cause rust and loss of strength. To assure reestablishing a watertight seal the injury must be cleaned with a specially designed cutting drill that removes rust and sizes the injury properly to accept the rubber stem of the patch. Cemented in place, the stem will vulcanize with the tire to help prevent moisture from reaching the tire's reinforcing cords from the outside.
While indoor laboratory tests have shown that freshly punctured and properly repaired speed rated tires can still achieve high speeds, it is not recommended that repaired street tires, or punctured DOT-legal competition tires and racing slicks be used for track events.
How do you know which procedures a tire dealer uses? Ask them! But be aware that if they say they can repair a tire in 10 minutes for under $10 dollars without removing it from the wheel, they aren't following the Rubber Manufacturer's Association procedures. A correctly done flat repair that follows the multi-step repair procedures will take approximately 30 minutes and probably cost around $30. Driving on an improperly repaired tire is dangerous because it can further damage the tire and/or allow its strength to deteriorate over time. An improperly repaired tire driven at high speeds may suddenly fail, causing loss of vehicle control. Additionally, the use of an innertube as a substitute for a proper repair generates additional heat and should not be considered.
11-28-2023, 08:47 PM
#54
Also, the barber says you need a haircut
The following users liked this post:
Nowanker (11-29-2023)
11-28-2023, 10:04 PM
#55
Advanced
Thread Starter
I got the message, will replace the tire.
I think I just need to figure out if its all four or just the rears now. The tires have like 100 street miles and two track weekends - Watkins Glen and VIR.
11-28-2023, 10:14 PM
#56
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: The Swamps of Jersey/WGI/VIR...
Posts: 6,230
Received 1,457 Likes
on
1,010 Posts
I have a friend who suggested the same thing! Granted, he wants me to sell my car to him
I got the message, will replace the tire.
I think I just need to figure out if its all four or just the rears now. The tires have like 100 street miles and two track weekends - Watkins Glen and VIR.
I got the message, will replace the tire.
I think I just need to figure out if its all four or just the rears now. The tires have like 100 street miles and two track weekends - Watkins Glen and VIR.
Well done.
Replacing the rears is a guarantee. Replacing the one will probably be fine, but what Im really impressed with is the decision you made. Good on you.
For what its worth, plug and patch the one and save both rears as street spares.
Let us know when youll be at either of those tracks (or any track) and well make sure to stop by and say hey.
The following 2 users liked this post by dgrobs:
ldamelio (11-29-2023),
Mike Roblin (11-28-2023)
11-28-2023, 10:56 PM
#57
Rennlist Member
I have a friend who suggested the same thing! Granted, he wants me to sell my car to him
I got the message, will replace the tire.
I think I just need to figure out if its all four or just the rears now. The tires have like 100 street miles and two track weekends - Watkins Glen and VIR.
I got the message, will replace the tire.
I think I just need to figure out if its all four or just the rears now. The tires have like 100 street miles and two track weekends - Watkins Glen and VIR.
LOL, your friend is a keeper!
In all honesty though, Id just replace the two rears since your car is rear limited already. (keep the good one as a spare for now)
By that I mean, if youre really pushing the car you should be running out of rear grip as the tires age before the fronts. This way you will probably wear out the used fronts and the new rears around the same time.
The following users liked this post:
ChaosHokie (11-29-2023)
The following users liked this post:
Nowanker (11-29-2023)
11-29-2023, 01:22 PM
#59
Some good information how plugs/patches can affect speed rating.
https://www.tirerack.com/upgrade-gar...s-speed-rating
https://www.tirerack.com/upgrade-gar...s-speed-rating
nice find. and what do ya know.....
looks like falken does not think repairing a tire has no impact on it...
11-29-2023, 01:25 PM
#60
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: The Swamps of Jersey/WGI/VIR...
Posts: 6,230
Received 1,457 Likes
on
1,010 Posts
The following users liked this post:
nineball (11-29-2023)