Coochas

I'm watching the Indycar race at Thermal and I noticed something interesting on the curbing.

For the part of the track with red/white curbing, there is a blue square at the apex of the turn.
For the part of the track with blue/white curbing, there is a red square at the apex of the turn.
This is presumably used instead of apex cones.

Is this something others have seen at club tracks or elsewhere?

DER951

For years now I’ve noticed paint marks at the apex on curbing at Laguna Seca.

They can be seen on Google Earth.

Matt Romanowski

There are similar all over. Pocono had triangles.

ldamelio

Just on the tri-oval or on all the variations? I haven't been there in a couple of years and just remember cones.

Matt Romanowski

It's been a while, but I remember it being on all versions, but maybe I'm confusing before the repave?

paradocs98

Good idea. Cones tend to walk as the day goes on…

ldamelio

I've only been at this since 2021. Just cones when I drove there (Pocono) in 2021 and 2022.

Regarding the thread in general, aren't apex markers relative anyway? Different cars, different conditions the optimal apex changes anyway, right? I know the geometric apex remains constant but markers of any kind are only a relative suggestion. For the experts, am I missing anything?

stownsen914

There is some value in a fixed marker for instructional purposes. Cones are good too, but that is of course to the discretion of whoever is placing them. I remember putting 4 off once as an HPDE student because somehow a cone moved mid-session to an early apex position and I dutifully early apexed lol.

LuigiVampa

Lime Rock has red dots where all the apex and track out cones go.

ProCoach

No.

No.

Yes to the first part, NO on the second part.

Input amplitude and timing may change, but the geometry rarely, if ever, does.

When you look at the highest level drivers, their precision is not only spectacular, it's consistent and almost never changes between them.

Outliers (or those that take the markers as a "suggestion") are able to be identified immediately, because they don't "look" right. The outliers tend to compromise some aspect of the optimal geometry and are slower because of that.

ProCoach

Skippy started that.

Was good to see you at VIR, get my hug and deliver Swedish Fish!


LV, Rob Slonaker and me at the Club Race.

Coochas

Here is an image of the curbing. I think this is from a BMW school there hence the extra cones lying around.

ProCoach

The placement of additional markers at the optimal geometric point inside the longer curbs at some tracks are derived from where the quickest folks tend to put an inside wheel OVER the longer curbs. Just like looking for the point where no grass grows inside longer curbs without these markers. It's simple efficiency.

For instance, the WTR Laguna Seca Turn 5 "sausage" is slightly earlier than the optimal on a flat level road because a) the radius traverses MORE than 90 degrees, b) there is a big camber gain approaching it from turn-in as you cross the centerline and c), there's BIG elevation to catch you as you track out up the hill.

Another example is COTA's Turn 1.

ProCoach

At Thermal, because it's a club track and the home for the BMNW M-School on the West Coast, these painted markers are optimal references like the "sausages" but without the penalty of damaging the floors.

ProCoach

THIS (in bold) is the problem...