Slow RSA

Chuck you are spot on there. Learning a little more about the process, PCA as a whole was the afterthought at PCNA/PMNA's big show. PCA club race organizers, volunteers, scruts, etc were in the same boat as us racers at that event. I'm sure PMNA sees PCA as the place to identify people buying second hand Cup cars and sell them brand new Cups/CS's for Sprint Challenge and Carrera Cup. I'm glad they mentioned it in the driver's meeting that we were there to be part of somebody else's circus, and the race weekend wasn't going to be representative of the traditional PCA club race weekend. Still an honor to be part of such an epic event like RR7 and can't wait for Road America later this year to get back to the 'normal' PCA club racing. I hope PMNA treats their race customers a little better than the old-car-driving PCA racers at RR7...

RobT 394

For some racers that have left you can sum it up with this quote:

People will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel.

Just ask the last 911Cup advocate and countless numbers of Cup Car drivers that are now in IGT.

And when the last advocate left his customers sold their cars and moved on. So not good for what was and is a growing class.

LuigiVampa

Or you can just ask me.

https://rennlist.com/forums/racing-a...l#post19372019

ProCoach

NFW!

BTW, I think Rob was talking about Mark... who incidentally is now running Sports 2000 in historics in an awesome Chevron.

fatbillybob

Wow! I have heard similar stories where good racers, good people, are run over by the organization. They, like you, move on and find happiness elsewhere.

RobT 394

^^^This is one of the single biggest issues IMHO. It is the culture that has to evolve. I think most of us would agree the track time is better than most, race length is better than most, cost is reasonable. But if the culture does not improve and car classes do not evolve people will leave for greener pastures.

wildcat077

I gave up on PCA racing many years ago when after an oil fire on Friday which roasted a bunch of stuff under my hood ... i had their head scrutineer Walter Frickey up my *** all weekend ... he kept coming to my trailer all weekend with his little golf cart to see my progress after i ran all around
the paddock trying to find vacuum lines, wiring to redo my injector harnesses and i had to buy some rear tailights off another racer because he said my brake lights weren't visible enough !
At one point i just told him that if he had nothing better to do , to go do it somewhere else ... anyhow , he called me in to the scales after the enduro and i got DQ'd for being 6 pounds underweight !
Same weekend. i got ran off the track by a guy i was chasing for three laps, the speed bumps took out most of the cooling fins on my oil pan, the driver got called in and he said because he was short
he had a hard time seeing out of his R/H side mirror, obviously he didn't see the blue flags on the three previous laps either ...

That's when i decided it was too **** for me and i said screw PCA !

Cheers
Phil

ProCoach

I appreciate @Adam144’s perspective, experience and enthusiasm. He has stepped up.

But, I think there are valuable lessons to be learned studying and observing how other groups operate, lead and regulate their events. I have learned so much being at the track between 150-200 days a year for the last four decades.

Writing a set of bylaws, basically codifying the culture, for one of the first successful track country clubs in the US, forced me to think about what was most desirable to a broad group of potential participants. This is not a new concept, this happened twenty-five years ago!

The most common limitation (hence cultural development limitation of that organization) is the siloing and entitlement that grows as the leadership ages.

Siloing because the leadership has never been out and around to see what other successful orgs do, so they become more and more entrenched and rigid.

Entitlement because they seek to justify the inconsistency and reinforce what are personal decisions, not policy and procedure. Less and less flexibility (or even the idea there could be a better way), more and more CYA. Witness how poorly LV’s situation has been handled.

I know that the number one reason why people tell me they leave or don’t want to go PCA Club Racing is due to sub par driving standards and the high level of contact. This is now creeping over to other orgs that have become progressively more lax on enforcement and consistency of penalties, perhaps a reflection of current culture. How many people have you seen run red lights or follow others through after the lights have changed, recently?

I always find it heartening when true racers with a moral center volunteer to become leaders in PCA Club Racing, like @Frank 993 C4S and @tgsmith4845 more of this is needed. What happened to Tim is completely unforgivable, and emblematic of rot within the organization Yet, there is little outreach to the racers from above. It is past time for a change.

davearm

I was seriously thinking about returning to W2W racing after a few year layoff, having raced about 10yrs in SM with NASA and SCCA. Was concerned about the increasing levels of contact at both organizations and was under the impression (based on obviously old information) that the 13/13 rules were still in effect. I was at VIR last weekend and was shocked at the amount of contact that occurred the BMWCCA races. I might just stick to DE events and private track days and forgo the W2W after all.

ProCoach

If you were at VIR for that weekend, you know and you would have seen that with 140 entries in historic racing, there were two car to car incidents. Drivers were sent home, period.

THAT is the difference. It’s the culture. You would like it there. I know I do, and I’ve raced a n SCCA, NASA, HSR, BMWCCA (#169) and many, many other groups. I was in the black #91 Group 7 Tiga Sports 2000.

fatbillybob

what historic group does that? I like it. I was with scca road atl last month and I only watched races a bit counted about 20+ car crashes/solo offs. My first time seeing track in practice at the chicane going under bridge lap two 4 cars smash, 2 of those expensive porsches. Could have been several 100 thousand dollars of car wrecked in practice! No body wins practice! It was such a shatshow I skipped my Sunday race went fishing on Lanier caught big strip bass. I got back to track to catch last 10mins of my sunday race. From one vantage point 2 full course cautions and 4 cars off just after T1with various damage. Then I was told before that was a black flag all with 10mins added back to my group. After the second full course caution in last 10mins they just called the race. Yes I made a better choice to go fishing.

I'm racing at VIR this weekend scca hst. The Saturday group 6 race in on youtube. An out of class car got between 2 cars in class fight for position. That's what happens in mixed class racing. Other car classes are not jumping out of your way especially if you are slower. So the 2nd in class hits the bumper of the out of class car about 4x in 30secs definitely destabilizing the out of class car as they moved down through the hogpen. There could have been a wreck right there. The incar shows the driver gesturing to the out of class car and banging his fist on steering wheel in rage. Why is this level of aggression allowed in club racing? I've been with scca for 20 or so years and it used to be fun. I've raced all over the country did runoffs a bunch of times. What I am seeing is pro level risk taking with amateur talent. It's no fun having to do bodywork and spend $50k or so on a swing around the country only to get taken out but an idiot . With every race I think I need a new drug? I could soon be one less car count or I'll have to get my elbows out and drive an ugly car.

davearm

Definitely might look to go historic/vintage. Might head up and chat with Dave at Sasco next week or two.

ProCoach

Good. Come visit me if we can get together. I'm in #2 in the Speed Suites, text me or email me your contact info.

This group is VDCA, an outgrowth of original founders of SVRA when they were concerned about the sale of SVRA to a single person, who in turn sold it to Tony Parella, who in turn sold a large portion to a VC firm.

VRG is another good group in the Mid-Atlantic/Southeast. VSCDA in the Mid-West, CVAR in Texas, CSRG on the West Coast and SOVREN in the Pacific Northwest.

I was #612 in SVRA, #46 in HSR, #5 in VDCA, #12 and a Life Member of VRG and #633 in VSCCA. It's a welcoming and sensible community, on track and off.

TRT41

This thread contains a lot of very interesting and useful ideas. From my perspective, and I love PCA HPDE and Club Racing… get involved. Get involved in your local regions PCA Club on any level be it: HPDE, Tech sessions, Club Racing, as an event volunteer. Many on this thread are involved, and I truly thank you! We need your passionate involvement and support for this sport that we love.

Mikelly

W-O-W!! I started this thread hoping to generate this level and type of discussion.

I am months away from full retirement from my day job and I plan to throw my efforts into reviving the 944 platform such that it is within the various racing clubs and really specifically PCA club racing so I will do what I can on my end to try to be a good steward of the sport and the platform for those who are definitely interested that I interact with frequently.

good reading and thank you ALL!!