MSR Racer

Honestly on a race track, red mist is worse than sleep apnea

LuigiVampa

I appreciate all the kind words of support, even from those who think I am out of my mind. I'm not so arrogant as to think I shouldn't hear some contrary views.

I want to make something clear - I love PCA and through PCA I have made so many great friends over the years. That is what makes this so deeply personal for me.

When the chair of the medical committee, who is a former F class racer, tells me that there is a danger that I will fall asleep while out on track, and that they enforce DOT truck driver standards for sleep apnea, I know that we have a committee that is out of control. I appealed to the president of PCA, who did spend quite a lot of time with me on this issue, but at the end of the day no one wants to overrule the doctors. Accordingly, the PCA medical committee operates as a star chamber doing whatever it wants.

I'm trying very hard not to attack PCA as an organization, but rather shine a light on a medical committee, which looks to be out of control. The number of messages I am receiving from people who have been treated poorly by the medical committee, with even less reason than my situation (if you can believe that), is crazy! I had no idea how big this problem was. Most just suck it up and give in so the medical committee notches another "victory" in the name of safety and keeps doing what it is doing.

I realize that this is a situation of my own making, but I feel betrayed because there are people within PCA who know that the medical committee is out of control, but they refuse to do anything. My heart just isn't in it at this point.

krell

It's not worth it for everyone, but it is for him. And I applaud him for sticking to his guns.

A short relatable personal story: my tollway transponder stopped working last year due to a dead battery even though the toll authority stated it should last until 2024. I was notified of multiple toll violation because of the non-functional transponder and they were charging me toll fees PLUS violation fees. When I told my GF this story and that I was going to contest it she said, "why not just pay it all and be done with it?" I said because I'm not wired that way! Why should I have to pay for someone else's screw up just to make it go away? I filled out the paperwork, submitted it, and won.

Luigi, I've never raced but I'm sorry you're having to deal with stupidity. Sadly it's all too common these days.

dgrobs

Good points, but I think the difference in PCA Racing (a passion), is not the same an overpaying the state for a non working EZ Pass. I’m wouldn’t pay extra $$ either, yes, on principal.
Luigi loves club racing. There’s a difference.
Still your point is valid.

Dan Jacobs

Todd
Very sad to hear this. I have always thought that you are the person that adds so much to the PCA experience
The very type the club needs so desperately
I was involved with a medical committee decision last year with a client that I also could not fathom the reasoning behind
One of the medical committee members is a regular contributor here ( and a great guy) A recent conversation was about the decision making of the group
Hope to see you at the track soon.

Nowanker

I understand your position. This is an absurd policy!
Sometimes you need to take a stand on things.
Making this a public fight is the only way to remedy it, short of jumping through whatever hoops Mr.In-Charge wishes to throw up.
Typically, other petty officials in the organization would just 'circle the wagons' if you tried to pursue it through the club.

stuttgart46

This is insanity. There are drivers in IMSA that use CPAP machines.

winders

It would seem it is time for legal action....

Mahler9th

I hope everyone calms down... internet forums can cause blood pressure increases that may not be healthy.

OSA clinical experts and CPAP inventors are about 1/8 degree from me in my professional NW. OSA is no joke and the use of medical devices like CPAP machines and implantable devices can have a big impact on the health of millions.

I am NOT familiar with DOT truck driver standards, but no doubt that they are being compared with standards for the robots that will soon be driving many trucks.

I think the PCA program is the largest like it in the country or more likely the world, and I suspect that insurance issues are quite complex.

On the medical side, I asked a local surgeon/racer and medical director of an organization* that you have ALL heard of, and many have raced with (not PCA), about EKG requirements over an adult beverage years ago. I asked about the linkage between EKG test results and racing safety. It was an interesting conversation... and it was not all about cardiovascular health and performance (a topic I know a bit about).

I also remember back in 2010 or so when PCA said I could wear a two piece, single layer 200 year old SFI suit with "fire retardant underwear," but not a brand new old stock F1-quaility Sparco three layer with FIA 1986 cert over the same underwear.

I think there was a thread here on that topic back around that time (yeah I go back before RL all the way back before the beginning).

These things happen.

I suspect the relationship between untreated and poorly treated OSA and the kinds of physiologic stresses we experience on track may be different from what is studied and considered for trucking, but I may be wrong. But that is on the medical science side.

On the insurance side, things may be different.

I have raced with many folks with OSA. I can think of one that had to quit racing, despite several forms of surgical and medical intervention-- he really struggled with racing and in life with his OSA.

On the commercial side, there is no question that cheap memory and IOT enabled a beneficial capability for CPAP machines. Outcomes improve.

Just not sure how well the resulting CLINICAL information has "informed" parameters related to racing safety and risk.

Medical "standards of care" do not likely 100% correlate to policies and insurance actuary.

AI will fix this soon.

Meanwhile, I hope that this works out/gets resolved quickly.

* well okay, it was NASA. The medical director could NOT tell me what an EKG result above a certain age had to do with racing. Full disclosure-- I knew the answer before I asked the question.

Mahler9th

I took a quick look around about OSA, CPAP therapy and DOT. Interesting.

Many, most if not all machines can store data related to "compliance," and "compliance" based on some metrics. CPAP machines cannot characterize OSA like the myriad tools used in sleep studies-- you all likely know that fact.

But they can and do store data, and data can be correlated with "compliance." So, for example you can have a "requirement" that says, "you need to provide one month of data that shows at least four hours of sleep with machine for 70% of nights."

Of course, if required for a CDL or a racing license, such data is no guarantee of ongoing compliance.

And of course, it is likely such machines can be hacked. Almost for sure.

In any case, I think it might not be best to react with outrage, but rather with understanding.

More tech means more ways to slice and dice risk.

Humans have to sort out what that means, even in non-profit organizations.

Soon AI will do this in many more settings. The very meaning of "risk" will change.

I need to review the CPAP data from my wife's machine to determine whether she is safe to operate appliances and Autocad.

thebishman

As a physician who dealt with patients suffering from OSA on an almost daily basis, this is one of the stupidest ‘medical’ decisions I’ve ever heard of, and frankly makes me wonder what type of physicians are on the PCA Medical Committee making these inane rules.

The facts are that there are more people with true OSA who don’t know they have it than do, and hence walk around completely untreated doing their daily activities including long distance driving, and yes, no doubt participating in PCA Club Racing. Risk factors include: Being Male; Being older; being Overweight; having a larger than normal neck circumference; Smoking; a family history. etc. I don’t know anyone racing with the PCA, but I bet many of you do know of individuals who easily meet some/all of these criteria. But, because afflicted but non-diagnosed individuals don’t put ‘OSA’ on their medical form means that they’re licensed without an issue, whereas someone who is honest; getting the appropriate treatment and has medical correlation that he is in complete compliance loses his PCA license? Are you effing kidding me?

The chance of LuigiVampa falling asleep behind the wheel of his race car after using his CPAP machine the night before is far less, statistically speaking I’m guessing, than someone suffering an MI or CVA on track.

Mahler9th

Ok, now I think I see more clearly.

Sounds like you had a machine with the required data that failed, and you did not have a sufficient amount of data from new machine(s) at the time they requested it for a renewal of license.

Sounds like you have disagreed about the correlation between DOT/CDL requirements with respect to OSA and therapy, and racing. Separate issue. May not be simply medical... may have more to do with insurance.

Sounds like PCA never told you or anyone else that you may have to provide some amount of CPAP data to show some level of compliance if you admit OSA and/or CPAP on medical forms. If so, separate issue. Do they spell out what is sufficient as an EKG?

Seems like the issue is that you cannot provide the amount of data they request/require, and that if you could it would meet their numbers (for example 70% compliance for four hours a night over x days or Y weeks).

It may be possible that if your failed machine has a memory card that did not fail, the data is available.

It may be possible if the old machine "phoned home," then one of your medical providers has sufficient data.

It may also be possible, that other racers have been in similar situations, for example with EKG data that is a bit outdated, and grace has been granted for a race or two.

ProCoach

I know you go way back, but this is categorically not true. At all.

PCA Club Racing actions here are the outlier. Period.

paradocs98

Late to the thread. So sorry to hear this, Todd. Unbelievably frustrating. You're being punished for being honest, forthright and compliant, while others either don't disclose their medical conditions or aren't aware of them, and are therefore allowed to compete. As for taking a stand, it sounds like you've done all you can in appealing to the president of PCA, but my guess is that he's unwilling to override the medical committee because of liability concerns, even if he agrees with you in principle. I'm hoping that enough people with the ear of the medical committee will encourage them to reconsider.

Mahler9th

WTF Peter?

I never said or implied PCA was not an outlier!

What about anything I said is untrue?

Are insurance issues not complex? Or not?

Is the PCA program a large one... one of the largest? Or not?

Not my area of expertise and not interested.

My example of the old nasty SFI suit is real. When I confronted PCA all I got was "oops."

To race in RR IV (my last PCA race in 2011), I had to jump through hoops. I was able to confirm my Sparco FIA 1986 suit was also SFI rated and therefore it was okay.

That situation was silly and a PCA official admitted that it made no sense. That was in 2011.

Some folks here might remember-- all of a sudden people had to buy new suits, new gloves, new shoes.

In this case, if the PCA has not disclosed in any proactive way what it requires for racers who self-disclose OSA and CPAP therapy, that should be corrected.

Seems like they are saying that if you self disclose OSA and CPAP therapy, you need to provide data from your CPAP machine.

If a racer does not have the "required data" to provide for whatever reason, because they need x days or y weeks or z months, then folks need to know, just like they need to know how "fresh" their EKG results need to be to get a license.

What would happen to a racer that was diagnosed and started CPAP therapy immediately on the same day-- two weeks before license renewal and three weeks before a race, and the data requirement needed to show 70% compliance at 4 hours a night for three months?

Makes no sense.

The issue here seems to be a policy issue-- a disagreement with the policy. And I agree with that disagreement.

Just makes no sense.

I have not done the reading on OSA, CPAP therapy and the physiology of racing cars, but if I take at face value some physician(s) have decided that a PCA Club racer that cannot prove some historical compliance with CPAP therapy (which I think on average is less than 50% for the population with CPAP anyway) is unfit to race because they may fall asleep, why would PCA not require a breathalyzer test before every session? A drug test? A cardiac stress test?

An IQ test?

Yikes.