LuigiVampa

I hear you but I guess the problem is that the guy who runs just slightly too deep at T1 on the first lap of a race, and trades just a small bit of paint, is treated exactly the same as someone who goes bowling in T7 of Sebring and takes out multiple cars. Shouldn't the punishment have a relation to the crime? To me that is part of the problem of the inconsistency in the application of the 13/13 rules.

I was at the driver's meeting at LRP on Friday when this rule was announced. There was not a single driver who wasn't surprised by this rule change. If all 110 drivers were at the meeting exactly who are the drivers PCA spoke with about this rule change?

Streak

As ProCoach said, any points earned in a race where a driver was found at fault for an incident should be taken away.

And this solves nothing until the bullsh@t passing rule is defined so as not to be left open to some truly idiotic interpretations by racers and stewards alike.

But it does show they are listening.

dan212

Its a question of transparency.
And teeth.
And consistency.

So if 9 races can be covered by 3-4 EVENTS (depending on the number of sprints in the event), someone with money to burn can go into their 4th or 5th EVENT, hit someone and just start a new cycle.

I really DO appreciate the effort to make a change here, but I don’t think the job (also lacking transparency) is done.

esscape26

Everyone likes a shorter probation, but the problem is that the period should not be by number of races. No one should be forced to "work off" their probation for a hobby. The length should be plain and simple, that is, time based.

For some, probation might mean sitting out races generally, or particularly in the rain. Perhaps it means going to a driving school or trying to have good PCA practices to understand car control, but not doing all 3 races in a weekend. Yes, statistics may be low, but they aren't if it involves you being assessed at fault by a sole governing authority in a nontransparent manner, without clear written policies on whose at fault.

Secondly, fast rule adoptions are nice, but there should still be a comment period. If you want to save the points for someone who complained (the likely impetus for this retroactive change), save their points but have a comment period.

As many know I have interviewed racers over the years. Some on 13/13 liked to go back to racing, but several took a time out or just did their local track, since they didn't want to get suspended due to another incident. Some went to NASA and then came back. I agree with these sentiments. We are always learning, and the chance exists for an incident to occur if you go on track no matter how hard you try.

For another example, at Summit, two cars were badly damaged and a third was not. In my opinion, the wrong racer (not me, I was in the stands) was assessed the fault, but I digress. So what happens with a probationary racer with a trashed car who can't race for months? Probation still, for a year or more?

ProCoach

Not with you on the driver motivation machinations regarding probation.

It’s simple. If someone makes a mistake and is found at fault, they continue to race knowing that they have to leave a little more margin to avoid a second incident while on probation.

An error while under probation, which I would hope (but haven’t seen confirmation of) would result in that driver having their competition license suspended for a period of time.

PCA Club Racing is the first organization in my forty year history of historic, club and pro racing that drivers actually make the calculation to remove the risk entirely of making that second mistake by selectively and consciously avoiding the chance of doing it again in PCA Club Racing. So they go make mistakes (or not) elsewhere until their PCA probation is expired. It truly boggles my mind!

The more I study this knee-jerk reaction, the more I think many serious underlying issues have been overlooked in exchange for an expedient demonstration of ability to change for the sake of change.

Bottom line is the 13/13 (not “the 13,” there are TWO parts to it) ceased many years ago to be an effective deterrent to judgement and decision errors resulting in first single-car, then only multiple car incidents.

This new initiative is just a different band-aid, but the original malady is still not being treated…

stownsen914

PCA is facing competing challenges in being strict on penalizing drivers for incidents while also facing declining participation. The 13/13 was stricter when PCA started Club Racing back in the 90s (noting inconsistent enforcement), but in the early days PCA didn't face as much competition from other racing orgs. Back then, there was a decent chance that a driver who got the second 13, would actually sit out for 13 months. One could argue it was a good deterrent. Now they are more likely to just go race somewhere else. A unique challenge, to be fair.

ProCoach

It is a challenge, for sure. Some of the smaller historic racing groups have experienced healthy growth from long time drivers fleeing the lax, inconsistent and unenforced 13/13 rules in the larger groups over the last decade or so.

When Alan Freidman organized the first Club Racing event at Potomac Region in June of 1992, he’d had history with SVRA, then the leading historic racing organization (they had just hired their first paid administrator shortly before this), so the impetus for driver accountability and incident adjudication came directly from the 13/13 Rule as outlined by SVRA at the time. It was about four years old when PCA Club Racing had their first event.

From Kelley’s article on the CR website “The World Before PCA Club Racing” subtitle.

Many good drivers took this leap into a different world. The SCCA was extremely competitive, especially at the national level. The racing was close, and racing incidents that put a car out of a race were considered simply part of racing. The SVRA was serious about vintage racing and at that time only allowed cars that had documented Trans-Am or FIA history. The cost of entry was high, but the racing was less aggressive. The SVRA had a 13/13 rule, under which a driver could be put on a 13-month probation for causing an incident and disqualified from racing for 13 months for a second offense while under probation. This rule worked to limit contact between cars, and was later to become a fundamental element of PCA Club Racing rules.

The explosive growth of PCA Club Racing is because people felt safer racing their cars in PCA Club Racing than in SCCA and other venues.

Most of the former PCA CR folks that I talk to racing elsewhere say the opposite is true now.

While some, including some large shops and pros like David Murry, may default to “it’s just a racing incident,” it’s that kind of thinking that has led us to where we are now, IMO and experience.

LuigiVampa

What is the best example of a similar organization's contact rules?

linzman

First Luigi's idiotic sleep apnea decision, now this 13/13 change. I am glad I got out of PCA racing this year.

HEY PCA, If you're reading this thread, this is why people are leaving PCA racing. You had plenty of warning signs for years and chose not to act, these are the consequences.

dgmark

After 14 years of club racing I am currently on a 13 due to an incident that happened in turn 8 at Road America last year. Entering turn 8 I was spun due to being hit in the left rear corner by a car attempting to pass on the inside. When I left the track I was assuming that no penalties would be forthcoming as there was only paint damage in my car but I did not see how much if any damage was on the other car and we both completed the weekend. 2 weeks later I was informed that I would be receiving a 13 and that the other car had presented himself. I Fully take responsibility if this was the case, but after the fact I cannot review the other driver's footage to see how far up on my side he actually was. This would put to rest in my mind that I screwed up and pinched him, In my mind he was not even close and spun me. Now this happened in the first sprint race so there was plenty of time to give me a heads up that I was at fault and track down the other driver to review his footage. The whole weekend I was pissed because I thought I was flat out spun. I will have to apologies to the other driver at the next race that I see him. My beef is that there was absolutely no communication with the stewards at the track after I turned in my video.

ProCoach

See, this is the problem. Not the rule, but the application of the rule and the process. Exactly the same as my Glen experience.

I have never seen any other group issue so many retrograde penalties. This is an adjudication problem, not a problem with the rule (in this case, as I see it).

The changes do not address this...

Mike Roblin

WTF? From what I’m reading this lack of communication seems to be the norm and to that I’ll ask, why is this acceptable to anyone? You thought you got dive bombed and the steward decided you closed the door on the other driver without ever giving you an explanation. Total BS…

LuigiVampa

They are listening enough to know that there is a problem but they did almost no work to find out what the drivers want. Why didn't PCA solicit comments from the drivers like they do when there are other rules changes.

Again, I was at the LRP drivers meeting and every one of the 100 drivers was surprised at the announcement to get rid of the 13/13 rule. Who did PCA talk to aside from David Murry and shop owners?

At the LRP race the blue shirts said this is retroactive to last year so you may already be out of the doghouse.

ProCoach

This is a repeat of an awful experience in Red Group at a Glen Club Race.

ProCoach

Crazy and certainly not right...