Sean F

I will be posting some chop suey moments that I had in the Glen race in the next couple of days. Similar story, the chopper accused me of dive bombing when we were running side by side.

JW in Texas

This should be entertaining! I think some people are just scared to death to go around a corner at speed next to somebody

Phokaioglaukos

Todd, I have had the same feeling you describe, and I think it's a holdover from all the DE days I have done.

When I am passed I think the overtaking car comes back on line aggressively, chopping me so that were I not to lift there would be contact. As I've gotten more experience (and maybe as my car is better recognized?), I push myself to not lift. No contact yet, but the space between my car and the overtaking car as the overtaking car gets back on line is very small. (Understand, though, that in my class bump drafting is not unusual, even among drivers who do not really know each other, so cars are generally close together.) What I am still working on is the other side of the equation--when I overtake a car promptly getting back on line myself.

In DE we give each other a lot of space, side to side and nose to tail. Not so in racing. (Do PCA club racers learn to pass with no more than 6" from the side of the overtaken car to the side of the overtaking car? That's what SCCA race school teaches, and passes are often closer than that.) I'm working on getting my instincts adjusted.

993944S2

I would like to add that I spent the entire second sprint race behind Jess and one of his buddies in a red 911. They were going at it like crazy. At time, I thought they would take each other out. However, I did not know they had over 1000 laps racing against each other, door-to-door. That explains how they were able to race so close. I think I was about 0.5 sec a lap faster during that race but there was no way I could get by. Actually, it was quite entertaining watching them go at it. Very good, clean, hard nosed racing. They should come back next year for sure!!!

M758

Todd,
That is one bad thing about the idea of "co-exist". It mean there are 3 types corners. Yours, mine and OURS. I perfer ther rules to say it is either yours or mine. It makes it clearer that when you chop someone or someone chops you.

So go deep in a corner and expect it to be either clearly your or you get chopped. None of this "it was ours and did not give me room". Sameway if you are the lead car. You either give in the corner or strongly take it. If you happen to give room fine, but then be prepared for a fight since "giving" room is perilously close to giving in. Once a good racers gets the "foot in the door" they are not going to give it back.

That is what most rookies lack. The basic understanding when it your corner and when it is not. As such you can feel like it was your corner or had room and the other guy chops you. Then you can turn around and give room and feel like the other guy is just forcing through. Really there is not alot to sway about it as I can't really describe this in words. In the end once you pass and get passed alot you learn when a corner is "yours", when it is "theirs" and when you are infor a side by side fight. You will also learn a key element in racing in that is getting corner when it really was not yours in the first place. Metal games do play an important role as I have pulled of a few passes where I showed the nose, but did not expect to get room to pass. However when the space was made I took full advantage.

TD in DC

Chris, that is certainly part of the equation, but when I say chopped, I mean coming down onto you when your front wheel is in front of their rear wheel, and I mean sometimes significantly . . . so contact would be inevitable if no evasive maneuver is taken. If there were no 13/13 and I were loaded, I would be tempted to just call the bluff and not back out or lift. But since I did not want to get a 13 or cause damage to my car (or anybody else's for that matter), I typically did what needed to be done to avoid contact. The places where it was the worst was from the chute through T9 at Summit, for example (and moreso in PCA club races than in 44 cup).

Gary R.

No problem Jess, i'm just judging placement from what I saw from several cars back. But again, if no one was in front of you (was there, I honestly don't know?) there is only one natural way to go exiting the S's, and that's to the left. Moving right brings you off line and scrubs speed, as Steve correctly stated earlier, and is only done to pass or to block. Either are perfectly correct moves.. I fully understand that you were trying to move right if it was near the apex of the last right, just seemed further down by all the smoke and carnage.

Sean F

A good point lost in this thread. There was some very good racing at the front of green sprint group. I was behind some of the E guys for a stretch as well as I was battling with another car in class for the lead. They were entertaining to watch up front. So much dicing going on it was impossible to get by.

M758

It is interesting because many of 944 spec racers have been racing each other hard in the same cars for 4-5 years. We know each other really well and the same goes for the tracks and our cars. As such some of moves look insane to others around us who don't know and being the local class director I hear stories about newer people thinking nasty wreck was just about to happen. Yet inside the car we are having a blast racing very hard yet also very comfortably.

Brian P

TD, it's hard to say without being there or without video. At the Glen race, 38D and Jupeman reviewed some video with me and it appeared that there were many times that I pulled out to pass and stuck my nose in without any reasonable shot of actually making a pass. I got "chopped", but I should have been chopped. There was no way I was really going to pass and the guy in front had the right to the line.

After their review of the video, I learned to stay behind and maintain some momentum so that I could pass them on the next straight. And, if I were to pass, to stay behind as long as I possibly could and pull out at the last instant to conserve as much drafting as possible.

Fortunately, I got this advice on Friday after the fun race and I was able to apply it in the sprint race. Well, let me say that passing was a TON easier. There seemed to be no confusion about what was going to happen in the corner. And, if somebody intended to keep me from passing, it was also pretty obvious.

On that note, if you are going into the corner with somebody behind you and you take the normal DE line, aren't you basically telling them that you expect them to pass there. If you don't want them to pass, you should protect the line, right?

chrisp

Jess,

I made the comment about seeing a lot of issues with your car over the weekend. By "a lot" I meant two for me and one communicated to me by another driver. I also heard a few comments from other drivers that "the colorado guys are nuts, must be all the oxygen down here at sea level".

I'm one of the slower guys out there (turning mid to low 2:20's) and have the luxury of having in and out of class cars coming by me at all sorts of speeds.

On two occasions you made pretty aggressive moves on me, a significantly slower car. It's not the end of the world and it in no way detracted from my experience this past weekend. It probably made me a better racer. That's why I kept my post pretty simple. I'm also pretty sure it wasn't anything I did because there are usually 1-2 people per day who hunt me down in the paddock to thank me for giving them room. I usually get a good wave from the front runners when the lapping begins. However, there's always the chance that I did something stupid. It wouldn't be the first time that's for sure!

One of my good friends in PCA racing chopped me pretty hard a few years ago (before we knew each other) when I was even more of a moving chicane and now we get a good chuckle out of it. Maybe the same will hold true for you and I in the future!

trackjunky

All good points, mind you, but I'll go back to my original post (a.k.a. = hijacking) and say: If this is "gentleman racing and PCA rookie school preaches yield the corner unless you are at least up to the door" why would there ever be two through the corner a.k.a. side by side. Seems counter intuitive.

My overriding issue here is that PCA needs to clarify the rule strongly so that events like the one discussed here are avoided. Either side by side racing through corners, or black flags for those who run afoul of the rule.

Jess

I hope I was in to way out of line with you on the track. I remember one of my first PCA races at California Speedway. Our then F cars were combined with the Cup cars. I thought they were all nuts! I kept asking myself (and anyone who would listen) why they just couldn't wait to pass me on the straights? Now I'm more comfortable with different closing rates.

Anyway, I hope you will please approach me in the future if I do anything that makes you at all uncomfortable on the track and I will do the same for you. I'd much rather clear the air immediately at the track, man to man (or woman) than be airing this somewhat dirty laundry over a public forum on Tuesday.

Take care,

Jess

Jess

Great! (Please don't let this be another one of me.)

Brian P

I've been taught that "yielding" means you have to coexist, not that you have to give up. So, I think it's perfectly normal that you would have racers side by side in the corner.