Couple of Radical SR3 Laps Thunderhill 12_12_08
12-15-2008, 07:43 PM
#16
Rennlist Member
No excuse for not seeing the radical coming On that straight, you exit to the right and then fade to the left well before the final turnin point for the right hand turn, while checking your mirrors. Lots of time for this. The cayman didnt even look or hear the radical coming. (the slower car has a very clear view of the straight behind).
The only dicy area is the exit of the "S's" where the slower leading car can either allow for an early left hand pass by sacraficing his left hand apex or a solid point by to allow for a right hand pass by sacraficing his right hand exit. (taking it narrow) besides that, these kind of run ins are not really excusable in an advanced or open group. The cayman didnt do anything really wrong, but, clearly didnt take even a glance at his mirrors after the exit of the right hand birm. If he had, he could have given a very appropriate point by and not effected his line or lap time at all.
Ken played it right though. prettty straight forward, you dont want to run the guy over by getting right on his tail and then waiting for a point by and/or getting it wrong at the last second and touching. Ken was going left hoping for a point buy or car movement staying right, but KNOWING, the cayman if he didnt see him would be drifting left. He did, and made a quick manuver to the right around him to the inside of the next right turn for an early apex. no problem, but Its much nicer when folks check their mirrors once in a while.
my opinion!
MK
The only dicy area is the exit of the "S's" where the slower leading car can either allow for an early left hand pass by sacraficing his left hand apex or a solid point by to allow for a right hand pass by sacraficing his right hand exit. (taking it narrow) besides that, these kind of run ins are not really excusable in an advanced or open group. The cayman didnt do anything really wrong, but, clearly didnt take even a glance at his mirrors after the exit of the right hand birm. If he had, he could have given a very appropriate point by and not effected his line or lap time at all.
Ken played it right though. prettty straight forward, you dont want to run the guy over by getting right on his tail and then waiting for a point by and/or getting it wrong at the last second and touching. Ken was going left hoping for a point buy or car movement staying right, but KNOWING, the cayman if he didnt see him would be drifting left. He did, and made a quick manuver to the right around him to the inside of the next right turn for an early apex. no problem, but Its much nicer when folks check their mirrors once in a while.
my opinion!
MK
It was a combo of bad things that made that happen.
It looks like Ken was pretty far back from teh Cayman at the beginning of a string of corners and was right on him at the very end but was very far left and in spot that was very likely blind to the Cayman. Combine that with a relatively slow overtake by Ken that time and it wasn't that shocking to see the guy get left for the next turn.
Racing a small car and having been in a big car when other sports racers were on course the best place for a sports racer to be is just slightly offset behind a car it is overtaking. It puts the car square in the side mirrors. The rearview mirror isn't very good for seeing those little cars once they are on your tail.
Nice stuff. It's fun to watch the passengers head slowly lean more and more as the laps went on. Which dash is that in the car?
It looks like Ken was pretty far back from teh Cayman at the beginning of a string of corners and was right on him at the very end but was very far left and in spot that was very likely blind to the Cayman. Combine that with a relatively slow overtake by Ken that time and it wasn't that shocking to see the guy get left for the next turn.
Racing a small car and having been in a big car when other sports racers were on course the best place for a sports racer to be is just slightly offset behind a car it is overtaking. It puts the car square in the side mirrors. The rearview mirror isn't very good for seeing those little cars once they are on your tail.
Nice stuff. It's fun to watch the passengers head slowly lean more and more as the laps went on. Which dash is that in the car?
12-15-2008, 07:55 PM
#17
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Mark, the 928 not that quick and not that small. Big differences. The one Cayman pass that I'm talking about is a perfect instance of why you need to be wary when driving a sports racer on an open lapping day.
Ken is 5 or so seconds and half a straight behind him going into a set of 5 or so turns. Every time Ken gets onto a little short straight the Cayman is already hard into the braking zone of the next turn or already turning in. As Ken gets caught up to him through all the turns he then holds a very tight line and is in teh Cayman's blind spot and doens't 'zoom' past him as his car usually does.
You add all that together with a guy who isn't great on the mirrors and bad things can happen Ken was obviosuly ready for it..
Ken is 5 or so seconds and half a straight behind him going into a set of 5 or so turns. Every time Ken gets onto a little short straight the Cayman is already hard into the braking zone of the next turn or already turning in. As Ken gets caught up to him through all the turns he then holds a very tight line and is in teh Cayman's blind spot and doens't 'zoom' past him as his car usually does.
You add all that together with a guy who isn't great on the mirrors and bad things can happen Ken was obviosuly ready for it..
12-15-2008, 08:11 PM
#19
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Thread Starter
OK, let's back up. If you've run Thunderhill, you know how this all played out. I'm nearing 15 years on this track (though the backside we are talking about didn't exist at first).
Most important thing to realize is that I'm reallllllllllllllly conservative when I've got it out in groups like this. It may not look like it, but trust me, I am.
Now we're back to Cayman dude. I think he's got 4-5 seasons of wheel-to-wheel experience. I can say I know him fairly well at the track. I'm sure if I went up to him afterward and mentioned a close call, he'd have apologized profusely if I felt I had to take evasive action. (I didn't.) But he's known for not being a mirror checker. When other guys on my local list viewed this, and knew who it was, I got a bunch of "well, duh." So since I didn't get a point by, I was fully expecting to have to move right.
Question about the dash? Just the one that comes standard. Good enough. I'm got an AIM Pista I've never installed.
Sequential box? Yeah, the internal one on the Hayabusa. Lift throttle upshift, and heel/toe downshift. You can bypass the clutch to downshift. But as I'm paying for it, more importantly would have to fix it myself, I'll "waste" the extra couple of tenths in the name of component longevity!
Most important thing to realize is that I'm reallllllllllllllly conservative when I've got it out in groups like this. It may not look like it, but trust me, I am.
Now we're back to Cayman dude. I think he's got 4-5 seasons of wheel-to-wheel experience. I can say I know him fairly well at the track. I'm sure if I went up to him afterward and mentioned a close call, he'd have apologized profusely if I felt I had to take evasive action. (I didn't.) But he's known for not being a mirror checker. When other guys on my local list viewed this, and knew who it was, I got a bunch of "well, duh." So since I didn't get a point by, I was fully expecting to have to move right.
Question about the dash? Just the one that comes standard. Good enough. I'm got an AIM Pista I've never installed.
Sequential box? Yeah, the internal one on the Hayabusa. Lift throttle upshift, and heel/toe downshift. You can bypass the clutch to downshift. But as I'm paying for it, more importantly would have to fix it myself, I'll "waste" the extra couple of tenths in the name of component longevity!
12-15-2008, 08:11 PM
#20
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Thread Starter
OK, let's back up. If you've run Thunderhill, you know how this all played out. I'm nearing 15 years on this track (though the backside we are talking about didn't exist at first).
Most important thing to realize is that I'm reallllllllllllllly conservative when I've got it out in groups like this. It may not look like it, but trust me, I am.
Now we're back to Cayman dude. I think he's got 4-5 seasons of wheel-to-wheel experience. I can say I know him fairly well at the track. I'm sure if I went up to him afterward and mentioned a close call, he'd have apologized profusely if I felt I had to take evasive action. (I didn't.) But he's known for not being a mirror checker. When other guys on my local list viewed this, and knew who it was, I got a bunch of "well, duh." So since I didn't get a point by, I was fully expecting to have to move right.
Question about the dash? Just the one that comes standard. Good enough. I'm got an AIM Pista I've never installed.
Sequential box? Yeah, the internal one on the Hayabusa. Lift throttle upshift, and heel/toe downshift. You can bypass the clutch to downshift. But as I'm paying for it, more importantly would have to fix it myself, I'll "waste" the extra couple of tenths in the name of component longevity!
Most important thing to realize is that I'm reallllllllllllllly conservative when I've got it out in groups like this. It may not look like it, but trust me, I am.
Now we're back to Cayman dude. I think he's got 4-5 seasons of wheel-to-wheel experience. I can say I know him fairly well at the track. I'm sure if I went up to him afterward and mentioned a close call, he'd have apologized profusely if I felt I had to take evasive action. (I didn't.) But he's known for not being a mirror checker. When other guys on my local list viewed this, and knew who it was, I got a bunch of "well, duh." So since I didn't get a point by, I was fully expecting to have to move right.
Question about the dash? Just the one that comes standard. Good enough. I'm got an AIM Pista I've never installed.
Sequential box? Yeah, the internal one on the Hayabusa. Lift throttle upshift, and heel/toe downshift. You can bypass the clutch to downshift. But as I'm paying for it, more importantly would have to fix it myself, I'll "waste" the extra couple of tenths in the name of component longevity!
12-15-2008, 09:22 PM
#21
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Ken, is that a rearview cam?
Great idea, I've been going nuts trying to figure out a workable mirror situation in my SR3.
Can you give me more details please, who makes it, where did you mount the camera and how much power does it draw?
Edit: just saw your post saying that it is a rearview cam. No problems keeping it on at all times though right? (which is what it appears you do from the video)
Great idea, I've been going nuts trying to figure out a workable mirror situation in my SR3.
Can you give me more details please, who makes it, where did you mount the camera and how much power does it draw?
Edit: just saw your post saying that it is a rearview cam. No problems keeping it on at all times though right? (which is what it appears you do from the video)
12-15-2008, 09:38 PM
#22
Rennlist Member
Ken on that lap was not much slower than what we run. Out of the S's we probably are near as fast. The Radical is much faster under braking and around the turns. 2:00 range. And yes, we come up on traffic, almost just as fast as ken did out of those S's. That is not the point. Ive been on track with much faster cars than mine and its just a habit to check the mirrors occasionally . Just for fun, i played both videos side by side. after turn 6, there is not much difference between my car and this one with a buch of dead weight in the passenger seat.
928 racer at Thunderhill
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yusCDwWJz0
Radical video with passenger:
http://www.gofastvideo.com/video/184...derhill-121208
Its a great example of what needs to be taught and strengthened with new drivers. sure, this is an extreme example, but generally anytime you are crossing a track a quick glance needs to be made in the mirrors. Thats all. It didnt look dangerous or that bad, as Ken obviosly knows the track and the flow of cars he is approaching. He looked to the left and saw a door slowely close and didnt even think twice about it, ran around him to the right. Im sure the driver of that cayman thought, "what the heck was that!", as this blur just ran by! Trust me, we have a stock Honda Civic that runs ITE and we lap him about 4 times in a race, so i know what is needed to get by oblivious drivers.
Just expect the expected and the unexpected.
mk
. Just for fun, i played both videos side by side. after turn 6, there is not much difference between my car and this one with a buch of dead weight in the passenger seat. 928 racer at Thunderhill
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yusCDwWJz0
Radical video with passenger:
http://www.gofastvideo.com/video/184...derhill-121208
Its a great example of what needs to be taught and strengthened with new drivers. sure, this is an extreme example, but generally anytime you are crossing a track a quick glance needs to be made in the mirrors. Thats all. It didnt look dangerous or that bad, as Ken obviosly knows the track and the flow of cars he is approaching. He looked to the left and saw a door slowely close and didnt even think twice about it, ran around him to the right. Im sure the driver of that cayman thought, "what the heck was that!", as this blur just ran by! Trust me, we have a stock Honda Civic that runs ITE and we lap him about 4 times in a race, so i know what is needed to get by oblivious drivers.
Just expect the expected and the unexpected.
mk
Mark, the 928 not that quick and not that small. Big differences. The one Cayman pass that I'm talking about is a perfect instance of why you need to be wary when driving a sports racer on an open lapping day.
Ken is 5 or so seconds and half a straight behind him going into a set of 5 or so turns. Every time Ken gets onto a little short straight the Cayman is already hard into the braking zone of the next turn or already turning in. As Ken gets caught up to him through all the turns he then holds a very tight line and is in teh Cayman's blind spot and doens't 'zoom' past him as his car usually does.
You add all that together with a guy who isn't great on the mirrors and bad things can happen Ken was obviosuly ready for it..
Ken is 5 or so seconds and half a straight behind him going into a set of 5 or so turns. Every time Ken gets onto a little short straight the Cayman is already hard into the braking zone of the next turn or already turning in. As Ken gets caught up to him through all the turns he then holds a very tight line and is in teh Cayman's blind spot and doens't 'zoom' past him as his car usually does.
You add all that together with a guy who isn't great on the mirrors and bad things can happen Ken was obviosuly ready for it..
Last edited by mark kibort; 12-16-2008 at 03:58 PM.
12-16-2008, 08:38 AM
#23
Three Wheelin'
My experience being on track with Radicals in the UK is that they seem to come out of nowhere. You check your mirrors ... clear. You check them again ... clear. You check them again ... one or more Radicals on your bumper! If you know they're out there you need to be very observant ... and get out of their way.
12-16-2008, 08:46 AM
#24
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Having spent the past couple of years racing my 924 against SCCA Spec Racers... it's disturbingly easy to lose those cars behind you, no matter how much experience you have. I always cringe when I have one near and behind me; they disappear under my rear wing, and are usually too low to pick up in the side mirrors - if you're lucky, you might see a flash of a helmet or rollbar. I always err on the safe side, but it's still scary. Knowing I'll utterly demolish the car too, if we touch, is frightening too...
12-16-2008, 10:47 AM
#25
Lifetime Rennlist Member
A few more insights on a Radical or other Sports Racer...
The Radical (and my previous Stohr) pull about 1.5-1.6 g's on low speed corners. This is too slow for aero and the handling is not at it's best. The Radical will get just over 2 g's on fast corners, my Stohr (with tunnels) would do a bit over 3 g's and the newest DSRs will pull 3.5+ g's on the fastest corners.
The challenge with these cars is the lap time difference. A radical, driven aggressively, will turn laps typically 10 seconds faster than the fastest DE Cars in the highest groups. The Stohr is 5-10 seconds faster than that. The closing rates are insane, especially in the corners where these cars could be doing 40 mph more than a race prepped production car. As a reference, my Stohr could do T1 at Mid Ohio FLAT and I understand that is should do T1 at Thunderhill FLAT as well.
In a DE environment, you have to be very careful as you come up quickly - a guy can check his mirrors in the middle of a long straight and see nothing. 2 corners later the Sports racer is on his butt. They are low and hard to see. The upside is that they brake so well and turn, that you can make very safe passes in very little room is the other driver sees you.
The Radical (and my previous Stohr) pull about 1.5-1.6 g's on low speed corners. This is too slow for aero and the handling is not at it's best. The Radical will get just over 2 g's on fast corners, my Stohr (with tunnels) would do a bit over 3 g's and the newest DSRs will pull 3.5+ g's on the fastest corners.
The challenge with these cars is the lap time difference. A radical, driven aggressively, will turn laps typically 10 seconds faster than the fastest DE Cars in the highest groups. The Stohr is 5-10 seconds faster than that. The closing rates are insane, especially in the corners where these cars could be doing 40 mph more than a race prepped production car. As a reference, my Stohr could do T1 at Mid Ohio FLAT and I understand that is should do T1 at Thunderhill FLAT as well.
In a DE environment, you have to be very careful as you come up quickly - a guy can check his mirrors in the middle of a long straight and see nothing. 2 corners later the Sports racer is on his butt. They are low and hard to see. The upside is that they brake so well and turn, that you can make very safe passes in very little room is the other driver sees you.
12-16-2008, 03:55 PM
#26
Rennlist Member
Yeah, probably a little too critical as i watched it again. This closure rate is not that great as Ken has stated, he was just cruising around, but still more has to be done with the mirrors with the open guys in advanced groups. I learned in groups that were even mixed with nascar, formula cars and anything else with 4 wheels, and got very aware of the possiblity of getting run over. Later it became a challenge to let guys through in ways to not hurt my lines or theirs. It paid off when i was in the back of the pack in the WC GT races I ran as a moving pylon, yet still being competitive with a few other cars racing around me.
Anyway, as was said, its obvious that ken was expecting the door to be closed and just went around the other direction. Its the unexpected movements, along with the lack of awareness that usually results in bad things happening on the track.
mk
Anyway, as was said, its obvious that ken was expecting the door to be closed and just went around the other direction. Its the unexpected movements, along with the lack of awareness that usually results in bad things happening on the track.
mk
A few more insights on a Radical or other Sports Racer...
The Radical (and my previous Stohr) pull about 1.5-1.6 g's on low speed corners. This is too slow for aero and the handling is not at it's best. The Radical will get just over 2 g's on fast corners, my Stohr (with tunnels) would do a bit over 3 g's and the newest DSRs will pull 3.5+ g's on the fastest corners.
The challenge with these cars is the lap time difference. A radical, driven aggressively, will turn laps typically 10 seconds faster than the fastest DE Cars in the highest groups. The Stohr is 5-10 seconds faster than that. The closing rates are insane, especially in the corners where these cars could be doing 40 mph more than a race prepped production car. As a reference, my Stohr could do T1 at Mid Ohio FLAT and I understand that is should do T1 at Thunderhill FLAT as well.
In a DE environment, you have to be very careful as you come up quickly - a guy can check his mirrors in the middle of a long straight and see nothing. 2 corners later the Sports racer is on his butt. They are low and hard to see. The upside is that they brake so well and turn, that you can make very safe passes in very little room is the other driver sees you.
The Radical (and my previous Stohr) pull about 1.5-1.6 g's on low speed corners. This is too slow for aero and the handling is not at it's best. The Radical will get just over 2 g's on fast corners, my Stohr (with tunnels) would do a bit over 3 g's and the newest DSRs will pull 3.5+ g's on the fastest corners.
The challenge with these cars is the lap time difference. A radical, driven aggressively, will turn laps typically 10 seconds faster than the fastest DE Cars in the highest groups. The Stohr is 5-10 seconds faster than that. The closing rates are insane, especially in the corners where these cars could be doing 40 mph more than a race prepped production car. As a reference, my Stohr could do T1 at Mid Ohio FLAT and I understand that is should do T1 at Thunderhill FLAT as well.
In a DE environment, you have to be very careful as you come up quickly - a guy can check his mirrors in the middle of a long straight and see nothing. 2 corners later the Sports racer is on his butt. They are low and hard to see. The upside is that they brake so well and turn, that you can make very safe passes in very little room is the other driver sees you.
12-17-2008, 11:31 AM
#27
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In my admittedly limited experience acting as a rolling chicane for the Radicals, the best thing you can do is hold your normal line and point them by IF you see them.
They can pass you at will. They are still accelerating when you are deep into your braking zone fer cryn' out loud. If you pull over to let them by, it may be a surprise to them and you also might spend the next session prying marbles off your tyres.
They can pass you at will. They are still accelerating when you are deep into your braking zone fer cryn' out loud. If you pull over to let them by, it may be a surprise to them and you also might spend the next session prying marbles off your tyres.
12-17-2008, 02:20 PM
#28
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i drove the radical on Iracing last night, the car is awesome, wish they did not cost so much because i have many different motorcycle engines and mechanics at my disposal (my cousin drag races bikes), but in time. I also love the way they look because they remind me of the P1 & P2 cars.
12-17-2008, 02:54 PM
#29
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In any case, the Radical just looks like a blast to drive and very quick.
12-17-2008, 05:03 PM
#30
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I know, they do dont they! 
how about this with the 8 cylinder!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwtyZosuPNE
mk
how about this with the 8 cylinder!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwtyZosuPNE
mk
i drove the radical on Iracing last night, the car is awesome, wish they did not cost so much because i have many different motorcycle engines and mechanics at my disposal (my cousin drag races bikes), but in time. I also love the way they look because they remind me of the P1 & P2 cars.