FredC

Generally....when early apexing, is one better with a loose or tight car?

tsheehan

loose, the car can rotate and you can stay in front of it with your hands, But why do you want to early apex? The only way a tight car can turn is to scrub off the speed down to where it will get bite in the front tires and turn. Loose you can manipulate tight you have to slow down. just like girls.

Regards
Tom

sig_a

(Likely you know this, but for those who don't)

Carroll Smith says in Tune To Win - page 131


(paraphrase) Set car up to understeer just short of neutral steer at mid corner so that you can feed power earlier without excess understeer tire drag. Adjust in just enough understeer to avoid power on oversteer as you exit the turn.

analogmike

not loose, loses speed

Veloce Raptor

Fred, what prompts the question?









Professional Racing and Driving Coach

IcemanG17

this is what I was thinking....

bobt993

I agree with Tom on this one. That is the first thing Chris Cervelli made me do to my car when worked with me in the past. More rotation on entry(full loose front bar). When you bend the car in early it is rotating, but predictable. As far as feeding power. If your able to apply heavy power at the apex (typical corner), then your entry was too slow and your throwing away entry and mid-corner speed.

FredC

Was watching video from last year's race at Sebring to prepare for the upcoming one. It looks as though i am making up ground by turning in early but that the car plows at the exit, killing any gain made at entry. I am thinking that loosening up the car could make the exit faster out of corners where an early entry appears advantageous. Best of both worlds type of thing...

Veloce Raptor

In that circumstance, i would agree. However, there may be negative consequences on other corners that may totally negate any advantages. For example, if your car is loose in fast sweepers, you will probably lose time...








Professional Racing and Driving Coach

bobt993

^^^^^^^^^^^ Such as Watkins Glen where a more predictable set with slight understeer is better.

Larry Herman

This is where aero comes in. You can set your car to be mechanically a little loose, and then as your speed picks up the aero will blend in understeer. A perfect combo.

kurt M

Ajustable sways.....

jrgordonsenior

If the corner leads onto a straight you want to accelerate as soon as you can, so you have to do one of two things. 1) Turn in later and apex later so the radius will become larger on the way out of the corner or 2) Rotate the car mid-corner to accomplish the same thing coming out. That's where late braking (threshold braking) comes into play.

Bob I don't understand the full loose front bar. I think you sacrifice your ability to control the rear of the car. I'm sure it's car/track specific, but as a amateur I need to feel I can handle the car in oversteer conditions especially on a fast sweeper.....

analogmike

Late apex is safe but slow. Start late at a new track or with a new setup and go earlier and earlier until you find the earliest you can go WITHOUT that understeer at corner exit, you can't lift after the corner if you want to be at top speed at corner exit.

Your 911SC is different from most cars (996, cup, front engine cars, etc), as you know, you DO want to be at full throttle AT the apex, often BEFORE the apex as there is way more grip than power, and full power will stick the car down.

Play with the sway bars to find the best setup for the course. Sebring is BUMPY... almost everywhere, with some VERY tight 2nd gear turns and a few VERY fast 4th gear turns so it's a tough one for setup.

bobt993

JR, you would be surprised how quickly you adapt to a full loose front bar. I was completely in your camp and resisted trying a full loose setting even after getting a pro coaches advice. I was fully convinced when I had a drop link break in a race when I got run off the track. The bolt looked good, but actually snapped the next weekend on a NASCAR bowl turn during a DE event. Car became very busy and after three laps I came in to find the link broken on the front sway bar. I looked at my Racepak to find that I was running .7 secs a lap faster than my best prior time on practice tires. Needless to say, I found a happy medium. A loose front bar challenges turn in more than track out when the weight shifts to the back wheels during acceleration. When Larry and I started experimenting with this setup we found that we could not accelerate as hard following the apex, but that was because our midcorner speeds were up almost 8mph. Look at your data on a low speed turn and work on flattening the dip to be closer to a flat line from entry ,apex towards track out. I found a good second a lap of momentum from doing this. The worst feeling on the track to me is under-steering like a dump truck at corner exit to track out. Larry also mentioned aero and rear wing angle helps a lot.