"Racing room" not required to be given in PCA club racing?
06-04-2011, 09:06 PM
#136
To me that is not clean racing at all. Berg swerved to take Mag to the wall, the only time in the entire race he used that "line". It's a blatant block and I hate it. Not to mention that it resulted in a wreck, and a big one. The fact that there is no damage on the Porsche means nothing, just that Mag missed him. Maybe he should have taken him with him.
All Bergmeister did was go to where Magnussen wanted to be. Magnussen left him racing room. Just not much of it.
Scott
06-05-2011, 03:46 AM
#137
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06-05-2011, 11:42 AM
#138
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It is interesting reading all the comments. Two guys look at the same video and see two different things. Like in all incidents I guess it depends on your perspective. One thing I can guarantee from lots of experience is what you hear in the paddock is not necessarily what actually happened.
PCA is unique in that we have the only race group with a 13-13 rule that is actually consistently enforced. We do have very clearly defined passing “rules” that are part of every orientation meeting. Maybe we do need to put them in the book. I am not sure what that would change. We have those clear points defined to be able to make consistent decisions concerning 13-13 incidents. We have also written many columns in Club Racing News with real world examples to make the points. PCA is also unique in that the Stewards who make the decisions are also active racers.
The concept is this: In a basic corner the car ahead at turn-in has the corner. Notice I did not say owns the corner. No one owns the corner. The overriding principal is racing room. Remember that racing room is the responsibility of all cars and that includes the car making the pass. He has a much better view in most cases. We have the car ahead at turn in to give a clearly defined point where certain things should happen for a correct clean pass. The passing car that did not or will not get to that position should start to back out of the pass. This point leaves plenty of room for that to occur in most cases if the passing car is under control. You can say well I want any overlap or up to the door etc to be the point. In most cases you actually mean somewhere before the apex. Getting even at turn-in is much easier to determine. Remember an at fault decision has to be made. Even then we can’t go out and measure where two cars are placed so a couple of feet either way is probably what you can determine. If they are even + or – they should share the corner. You can’t tell from most in car video from the cars who actually touch including ones shown in this thread what the relative position actually is at turn in. Following video works much better. Everyone should have video.
With the turn -in point defined as when you should back out why should it be hard to race accordingly? I have seen some pretty ridiculous dive bomb pass attempts that did not work where the driver is screaming ”he chopped me”. I can recall one where the following car was literally three car lengths behind at turn in and basically out of control where he thought the other guy should have moved out of his way. The guy attempting the pass screamed about being chopped. Bovine feces!
We also need to use some common sense. I have seen the situation in long corners where the turn in is not actually the first time you turn the wheel where the turn in point is hard to define. Turn in occurs when you turn toward the apex. I saw this in turn 5 at The Glen where some cars go to the left edge then turn in a third of the way around. Others go right to the curb asap. Even others are somewhere in between. Where is the actual turn in? If you go wide and someone goes inside of you in this situation you need to leave racing room. If you don’t want them inside of you don’t go wide.
The PCA chop is illusion that does not work. In each of the last two races I have worked or raced, both in the Northeast, at least one driver who closed the door on a car who had earned position was found at fault in an incident. From what I can tell, the descriptions the drivers gave in the paddock after receiving the 13-13 did not resemble what the video showed to be the truth. If a driver continues to push a pass when he hasn’t earned the position and contact occurs he will likely be found at fault. If the driver being passed knew or should have known the passing car was inside and turns into him anyway making contact he will likely either be found solely at fault or be part of a double 13-13 depending on the situation. I know of more than one double where the folks in the paddock never knew the car being passed also received a 13-13.
Now if you are chasing someone and continue your pass attempt when you are not going to get even by turn in but you might get a couple of feet of overlap prior to the door being closed completely with the guy driving a normal line did you really earn anything? Aren’t you really just being a bully?
Steward H
PCA is unique in that we have the only race group with a 13-13 rule that is actually consistently enforced. We do have very clearly defined passing “rules” that are part of every orientation meeting. Maybe we do need to put them in the book. I am not sure what that would change. We have those clear points defined to be able to make consistent decisions concerning 13-13 incidents. We have also written many columns in Club Racing News with real world examples to make the points. PCA is also unique in that the Stewards who make the decisions are also active racers.
The concept is this: In a basic corner the car ahead at turn-in has the corner. Notice I did not say owns the corner. No one owns the corner. The overriding principal is racing room. Remember that racing room is the responsibility of all cars and that includes the car making the pass. He has a much better view in most cases. We have the car ahead at turn in to give a clearly defined point where certain things should happen for a correct clean pass. The passing car that did not or will not get to that position should start to back out of the pass. This point leaves plenty of room for that to occur in most cases if the passing car is under control. You can say well I want any overlap or up to the door etc to be the point. In most cases you actually mean somewhere before the apex. Getting even at turn-in is much easier to determine. Remember an at fault decision has to be made. Even then we can’t go out and measure where two cars are placed so a couple of feet either way is probably what you can determine. If they are even + or – they should share the corner. You can’t tell from most in car video from the cars who actually touch including ones shown in this thread what the relative position actually is at turn in. Following video works much better. Everyone should have video.
With the turn -in point defined as when you should back out why should it be hard to race accordingly? I have seen some pretty ridiculous dive bomb pass attempts that did not work where the driver is screaming ”he chopped me”. I can recall one where the following car was literally three car lengths behind at turn in and basically out of control where he thought the other guy should have moved out of his way. The guy attempting the pass screamed about being chopped. Bovine feces!
We also need to use some common sense. I have seen the situation in long corners where the turn in is not actually the first time you turn the wheel where the turn in point is hard to define. Turn in occurs when you turn toward the apex. I saw this in turn 5 at The Glen where some cars go to the left edge then turn in a third of the way around. Others go right to the curb asap. Even others are somewhere in between. Where is the actual turn in? If you go wide and someone goes inside of you in this situation you need to leave racing room. If you don’t want them inside of you don’t go wide.
The PCA chop is illusion that does not work. In each of the last two races I have worked or raced, both in the Northeast, at least one driver who closed the door on a car who had earned position was found at fault in an incident. From what I can tell, the descriptions the drivers gave in the paddock after receiving the 13-13 did not resemble what the video showed to be the truth. If a driver continues to push a pass when he hasn’t earned the position and contact occurs he will likely be found at fault. If the driver being passed knew or should have known the passing car was inside and turns into him anyway making contact he will likely either be found solely at fault or be part of a double 13-13 depending on the situation. I know of more than one double where the folks in the paddock never knew the car being passed also received a 13-13.
Now if you are chasing someone and continue your pass attempt when you are not going to get even by turn in but you might get a couple of feet of overlap prior to the door being closed completely with the guy driving a normal line did you really earn anything? Aren’t you really just being a bully?
Steward H
06-05-2011, 01:07 PM
#139
Rennlist Member
And +1 on the basic good sense to run video, if for no other reason that self preservation in the event of an incident.
06-05-2011, 01:39 PM
#140
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Bryan, thank you for participating in this discussion and clearly defining the PCA 13/13 standards. This forum is mostly populated by very active PCA racers but what about the driver's that only race occasionally with PCA. They are not here. Please put the 13/13 rule and all of it's interpretations, as explained in CRN, in the rule book for 2012.
Great event at the Glen and nice to see stewards racing and continuing/gaining first hand current passing experience.
Bill
Great event at the Glen and nice to see stewards racing and continuing/gaining first hand current passing experience.
Bill
06-05-2011, 01:45 PM
#141
Rennlist Member
Bryan,
Thanks for your post and official explanation. Your definition is great and yes I think it should be in the rule book. Though I think TURN IN POINT is quite early to HAVE the corner, if the passing car is ahead by then it's a no brainer... and nobody would think they could get away with a chop. Just some feedback I hope can be taken constructively.
Thanks for your post and official explanation. Your definition is great and yes I think it should be in the rule book. Though I think TURN IN POINT is quite early to HAVE the corner, if the passing car is ahead by then it's a no brainer... and nobody would think they could get away with a chop. Just some feedback I hope can be taken constructively.
06-05-2011, 05:28 PM
#143
It is interesting reading all the comments. Two guys look at the same video and see two different things. Like in all incidents I guess it depends on your perspective. One thing I can guarantee from lots of experience is what you hear in the paddock is not necessarily what actually happened.
PCA is unique in that we have the only race group with a 13-13 rule that is actually consistently enforced. We do have very clearly defined passing “rules” that are part of every orientation meeting. Maybe we do need to put them in the book. I am not sure what that would change. We have those clear points defined to be able to make consistent decisions concerning 13-13 incidents. We have also written many columns in Club Racing News with real world examples to make the points. PCA is also unique in that the Stewards who make the decisions are also active racers.
The concept is this: In a basic corner the car ahead at turn-in has the corner. Notice I did not say owns the corner. No one owns the corner. The overriding principal is racing room. Remember that racing room is the responsibility of all cars and that includes the car making the pass. He has a much better view in most cases. We have the car ahead at turn in to give a clearly defined point where certain things should happen for a correct clean pass. The passing car that did not or will not get to that position should start to back out of the pass. This point leaves plenty of room for that to occur in most cases if the passing car is under control. You can say well I want any overlap or up to the door etc to be the point. In most cases you actually mean somewhere before the apex. Getting even at turn-in is much easier to determine. Remember an at fault decision has to be made. Even then we can’t go out and measure where two cars are placed so a couple of feet either way is probably what you can determine. If they are even + or – they should share the corner. You can’t tell from most in car video from the cars who actually touch including ones shown in this thread what the relative position actually is at turn in. Following video works much better. Everyone should have video.
With the turn -in point defined as when you should back out why should it be hard to race accordingly? I have seen some pretty ridiculous dive bomb pass attempts that did not work where the driver is screaming ”he chopped me”. I can recall one where the following car was literally three car lengths behind at turn in and basically out of control where he thought the other guy should have moved out of his way. The guy attempting the pass screamed about being chopped. Bovine feces!
We also need to use some common sense. I have seen the situation in long corners where the turn in is not actually the first time you turn the wheel where the turn in point is hard to define. Turn in occurs when you turn toward the apex. I saw this in turn 5 at The Glen where some cars go to the left edge then turn in a third of the way around. Others go right to the curb asap. Even others are somewhere in between. Where is the actual turn in? If you go wide and someone goes inside of you in this situation you need to leave racing room. If you don’t want them inside of you don’t go wide.
The PCA chop is illusion that does not work. In each of the last two races I have worked or raced, both in the Northeast, at least one driver who closed the door on a car who had earned position was found at fault in an incident. From what I can tell, the descriptions the drivers gave in the paddock after receiving the 13-13 did not resemble what the video showed to be the truth. If a driver continues to push a pass when he hasn’t earned the position and contact occurs he will likely be found at fault. If the driver being passed knew or should have known the passing car was inside and turns into him anyway making contact he will likely either be found solely at fault or be part of a double 13-13 depending on the situation. I know of more than one double where the folks in the paddock never knew the car being passed also received a 13-13.
Now if you are chasing someone and continue your pass attempt when you are not going to get even by turn in but you might get a couple of feet of overlap prior to the door being closed completely with the guy driving a normal line did you really earn anything? Aren’t you really just being a bully?
Steward H
PCA is unique in that we have the only race group with a 13-13 rule that is actually consistently enforced. We do have very clearly defined passing “rules” that are part of every orientation meeting. Maybe we do need to put them in the book. I am not sure what that would change. We have those clear points defined to be able to make consistent decisions concerning 13-13 incidents. We have also written many columns in Club Racing News with real world examples to make the points. PCA is also unique in that the Stewards who make the decisions are also active racers.
The concept is this: In a basic corner the car ahead at turn-in has the corner. Notice I did not say owns the corner. No one owns the corner. The overriding principal is racing room. Remember that racing room is the responsibility of all cars and that includes the car making the pass. He has a much better view in most cases. We have the car ahead at turn in to give a clearly defined point where certain things should happen for a correct clean pass. The passing car that did not or will not get to that position should start to back out of the pass. This point leaves plenty of room for that to occur in most cases if the passing car is under control. You can say well I want any overlap or up to the door etc to be the point. In most cases you actually mean somewhere before the apex. Getting even at turn-in is much easier to determine. Remember an at fault decision has to be made. Even then we can’t go out and measure where two cars are placed so a couple of feet either way is probably what you can determine. If they are even + or – they should share the corner. You can’t tell from most in car video from the cars who actually touch including ones shown in this thread what the relative position actually is at turn in. Following video works much better. Everyone should have video.
With the turn -in point defined as when you should back out why should it be hard to race accordingly? I have seen some pretty ridiculous dive bomb pass attempts that did not work where the driver is screaming ”he chopped me”. I can recall one where the following car was literally three car lengths behind at turn in and basically out of control where he thought the other guy should have moved out of his way. The guy attempting the pass screamed about being chopped. Bovine feces!
We also need to use some common sense. I have seen the situation in long corners where the turn in is not actually the first time you turn the wheel where the turn in point is hard to define. Turn in occurs when you turn toward the apex. I saw this in turn 5 at The Glen where some cars go to the left edge then turn in a third of the way around. Others go right to the curb asap. Even others are somewhere in between. Where is the actual turn in? If you go wide and someone goes inside of you in this situation you need to leave racing room. If you don’t want them inside of you don’t go wide.
The PCA chop is illusion that does not work. In each of the last two races I have worked or raced, both in the Northeast, at least one driver who closed the door on a car who had earned position was found at fault in an incident. From what I can tell, the descriptions the drivers gave in the paddock after receiving the 13-13 did not resemble what the video showed to be the truth. If a driver continues to push a pass when he hasn’t earned the position and contact occurs he will likely be found at fault. If the driver being passed knew or should have known the passing car was inside and turns into him anyway making contact he will likely either be found solely at fault or be part of a double 13-13 depending on the situation. I know of more than one double where the folks in the paddock never knew the car being passed also received a 13-13.
Now if you are chasing someone and continue your pass attempt when you are not going to get even by turn in but you might get a couple of feet of overlap prior to the door being closed completely with the guy driving a normal line did you really earn anything? Aren’t you really just being a bully?
Steward H
I wrote this earlier in this thread:
"I would think that if someone cannot get next to you by some reasonable amount before you turn in to the apex, they should back off and expect you to go to the apex. But what is the definition of reasonable? Is that any overlap? Is it half a car length of overlap?"
It would seem that I had the basic idea right and that the "reasonable amount" should be pretty close to even. This was pretty much the rule of thumb that was followed in my motorcycle club racing days. Do I have that right?
This makes a lot of sense to me considering we are all supposed to doing this for run and are racing for plastic trophies, or at most, some contingency money or product. One of things I like most about friendly competition is the relationships you create over time with the people you compete with. You don't get that if you don't respect the people you racing with. Part of that respect is not being a "bully".
Scott
06-05-2011, 07:59 PM
#144
Rennlist Member
Bryan, thanks again for checking in. That degree of specificity is helpful. I would put my vote in for putting it in the rules. Racers (or any "student") only retains so much from an orientation meeting. Passing rules & etiquette is at the core of racing, and something this important deserves to be spelled out in writing.
Any rule set is a set of compromises. This one, as you explained it, seems reasonable to the goals of the PCA. Figuring out wether you can make it ahead by what the other driver decides is his turn in point is challenging in a low powered car, but not unreasonable. The bar is set high for the passing car, so you'd better be sure you can reach that bar before you decide to make a pass.
Some famous racer said something to the effect of "they make the rules, we race with them - if they told us to race with three wheels, we'd figure out which wheel we need the least, and go racing."
Any rule set is a set of compromises. This one, as you explained it, seems reasonable to the goals of the PCA. Figuring out wether you can make it ahead by what the other driver decides is his turn in point is challenging in a low powered car, but not unreasonable. The bar is set high for the passing car, so you'd better be sure you can reach that bar before you decide to make a pass.
Some famous racer said something to the effect of "they make the rules, we race with them - if they told us to race with three wheels, we'd figure out which wheel we need the least, and go racing."
06-06-2011, 12:57 AM
#145
I think what Bryan writes is great, and I really enjoy (and agree with) his CRN articles. However, I can state from personal experience that his opinions are not fact and other stewards may have different interpretations of the rules. For that reason, I would love it if the rules were clarified in writing.
With that being said, here's my personal interpretations of the rules
1) If I'm passing someone, I expect that if my bumper is at their door, I'm going to be given racing room. This is especially true if I'm only inches away from them. The further I am from them, the more I view it as my fault if they chop me.
2) If someone is trying to pass me, I will judge whether or not I think they can back out of it. If there is a tiny amount of overlap and the rate of closing speed is not large, then I'm going to chop them. However, even if there is no overlap but the rate of closing is large, I may give them lots of room. Simply put, I like to win races, but I don't have someone paying for body damage to the car, so I'm not going to force an issue. Yes, it may cause me to lose a race or two, but I've also had competitors give me similar leeway - in other words, it all works out in the end.
Nearly all of the videos I've seen in this thread had examples where the attempted passer left too much distance from the car they were passing - that left them open to the chop. I'm not saying I do it better, but I can recognize it being done incorrectly (from experience). From everything I've read, you should be able to reach out your window and open the other guy's car door - that's how close you should be.
With that being said, here's my personal interpretations of the rules
1) If I'm passing someone, I expect that if my bumper is at their door, I'm going to be given racing room. This is especially true if I'm only inches away from them. The further I am from them, the more I view it as my fault if they chop me.
2) If someone is trying to pass me, I will judge whether or not I think they can back out of it. If there is a tiny amount of overlap and the rate of closing speed is not large, then I'm going to chop them. However, even if there is no overlap but the rate of closing is large, I may give them lots of room. Simply put, I like to win races, but I don't have someone paying for body damage to the car, so I'm not going to force an issue. Yes, it may cause me to lose a race or two, but I've also had competitors give me similar leeway - in other words, it all works out in the end.
Nearly all of the videos I've seen in this thread had examples where the attempted passer left too much distance from the car they were passing - that left them open to the chop. I'm not saying I do it better, but I can recognize it being done incorrectly (from experience). From everything I've read, you should be able to reach out your window and open the other guy's car door - that's how close you should be.
06-06-2011, 01:07 AM
#146
Here's another scenario, a driver's going down the back straight at the Glen. Driver behind got a decent run through the esses and is gaining on the car ahead but not enough to get alongside under normal driving. Guy behind decides to go Much deeper than usual in the brake zone (dive-bomb) on the inside in an attempt to pass. Guy in front looked in his mirror a couple of times and knows there's no way the guy behind can pass him in time, enters brake zone and turns in. Guy behind hits guy ahead at the rumble strips in rear wheel. Who's at fault?
I chose the latter as I enjoy finishing races and not paying for body damage.
I shared a beer with the guy that night - he f*cked up, made a mistake, and fortunately because I had the presence of mind not to turn into him, we were able to laugh about it afterwards.
I've also had a similar situation in turn 1 at the Glen and people initially criticized my driving. Basically, the person tried to dive bomb me in turn 1, so I slowed down earlier, let him shoot by, and as he tried to turn in, he spun. If you know your competitor can't actually make the turn, then you should let him try to pass and then spin/crash/drive off track. You can then continue on your race.
06-06-2011, 03:46 AM
#147
Rennlist Member
Nearly all of the videos I've seen in this thread had examples where the attempted passer left too much distance from the car they were passing - that left them open to the chop. I'm not saying I do it better, but I can recognize it being done incorrectly (from experience). From everything I've read, you should be able to reach out your window and open the other guy's car door - that's how close you should be.
Personally, I think staying right up alongside the car I'm passing has several benefits: 1) Slight aero advantage as I'm pulling up alongside them, which helps to facilitate the pass - particularly now that I'm running a Spec Boxster I need all the speed help I can get, 2) when you pull up alongside a car it is very hard for them to not know you are there, thereby making the pass safer, 3) I can drive as proper a line as I can thus greatly minimizing the chance of an over-under repass.
06-06-2011, 09:11 AM
#148
Drifting
06-06-2011, 10:40 AM
#149
Rennlist Member
That's how I was taught to pass, at Roos. Pin the guy to the outside until his line is hopeless, then proceed with the corner. I had to relearn that lesson as I don't always do it, but it's the safest way to do it against some of these knuckleheads....
06-06-2011, 10:47 AM
#150
Rennlist Member
I've also had a similar situation in turn 1 at the Glen and people initially criticized my driving. Basically, the person tried to dive bomb me in turn 1, so I slowed down earlier, let him shoot by, and as he tried to turn in, he spun. If you know your competitor can't actually make the turn, then you should let him try to pass and then spin/crash/drive off track. You can then continue on your race.