9.5 Degrees

This is a fantastic post. You've been in the perceived "lowest" cost car (944 spec) and also the highest (Cup).

Would you say that aside from the initial investment of the car itself, the Spec Boxsters have the most "Value" in terms of cost to run?

J richard

I was being snarky...

And to be clear I haven't "campaigned" a cup, it's more of a drag it out for a really nice day and a bucket list track trip. It is a blast but way too expensive to run as a regular platform. You need north of $3k a weekend on a do it yourself basis way more $$$$ if you have a shop do the work. And don't hit anything...going to run a few pirelli cups this year if it all pans out.

The 944 is the opposite end of the spectrum, tires are cheap, without fail at least one (or two) breaks every weekend, but there is as mentioned a whole pile of guys that will bust ***** to get you back running. Half for toyobucks but the other half because of the camaraderie. The racing is tight and hard, and it's a series that for the most part has been fairly clean, driver skill pays off, and I think I'm a much better driver because of it. If you run at the front you are a fast shoe. I just got back from running the car at Arizona motorsports park, a sound limited track, ( otherwise I'd have taken the boxster ) but wanted to try a different spring rate on the front, found several seconds that I've been frustrated with. With the exception of an obsessive/compulsive attention on the oil temp/pressure i don't have to worry about testing the limits of the car. It's cheap and easy to fix. The down side is that same attitude applies to w2w racing where close becomes contact, the racing is very tight and getting an edge often involves pushing harder than you would in a higher level of car. (but then there are guys that run cups with just as much abandon it's all relative)

Any race car takes time and money, but I was getting bummed with the reliability of a 30 year old car with a Achilles heal, #2 rod. The next logical step was the boxster. It shares many of the components of the cup and the low(er) cost and neutral handling of the 944. You can explore the higher limits without the liability of the cup while much of the feel is related. A 996 would of been an alternative, JR Gordon was whooping sum cup butt out at chuckwalla, but the operating cost will start to creep up again.

Right now in my region there are a few boxes but it hasn't caught on just yet, I think it will and be very popular, there is no question they are fun fun cars, way more capable than the 944, tires are just a little more expensive, no racing fuel, pads and parts aren't bad. I've spent the money up front on the parts for a reliable engine. If it turns out that it is reliable by comparison then I think we have a winner. My goal is to go to the track and tweak and adjust, run and have fun, not come home broke down.

The only other alternative is a venerable air cooled dry sump flat six. I've run those for years they have been extremely reliable, the problem is the cars just keep appreciating to the point where you don't want them on the track anymore. They are too nice to bang up...

I can't afford the time to putter on the cars like I used to, Joe (M758) does all his own work and his dad is always at the track as crew chief and the AZ 944 tech director, a dedicated shade tree team. Not many have the dedication or patience.

Anyway rant over. The 944 is a great place to start, if you have a group to run with, otherwise there are some nice alternatives.

Want to buy a nice 944spec car? New front springs! (and motor, and clutch, water pump, konis, weltmeisters, ra1s....)

Sterling Doc

My experience has been that it is that the initial build is critical. Being fussy with bearing clearances, cross drilling the crank, and assembly pay off in a big way. It's not hard, but requires being very fussy. If they are done right, and you keep up good maintenance, they are pretty built proof. These motors do not tolerate even a little bit of sloppiness like a small block does, though.

My first 944 motor was built by a local VW mechanic in his garage, by a very meticulous guy. It is still running competitively 6 seasons later (over 300 hours, including enduros), with one change of rod bearings (which looked great, BTW). Unfortunatey for me, I sold that car after one year when I moved to another 944 sponsored by a shop. I went through 3 motors in one year. I then moved back to the original builder, and have had no further motor failures, including 9 hour enduros, etc.

My advice - cry once. Have your motor done by someone like Dave Dirks, Jim Hartman, BJ Meyer, or a well respected shop, and be done with it. As far as running costs, the cheap tires, great tire contingency, (works out to 60+ tires a season for a large region) and a low rate of consumption of wear items really helps. My annual race budget is around $10K, after the car is built. This includes travel, entry fees, and car maintenance cost. I work hard to keep it there, but it can be done.

You location is a bit of an issue, though. The Midwest region is big, and the Texas region is fast approaching it, but the Central region is just getting off the ground. How far/where do you want to tow?

Check out www.944spec.org for more info. My detailed thread on how to build a nationally competitive 944 for $8K is on there as well.

JerryW

Another 944Spec racer here.

I've had one motor rebuilt in 6 years of racing it - and not because of the #2 bearing. It was just too tired. I do 90% of my own work - going to a shop when I just don't have time to do it myself. I'd still say running 944Spec to be cheaper than BoxSpec on a year to year basis, as well as the build cost being about half. Eric is correct on the attention to detail, but also once the cars are prepped they don't require THAT much attention. (Especially not compared to some of the higher classes).

When I go to the track I am the crew chief, mechanic and driver - and don't feel over committed (although it would be nice to have someone for tire pressures/temps every so often). I think Joe's costs in his spread sheet are right on the money.

For an affordable entry level race class I don't think there is much better than 944Spec

gums

Bottom line is that none of us can predict what it's going to cost or what's going to happen. At some point, just like the rest of us, you'll have to jump in and see what happens. Those of us in 944 I think are expressing that it's a good value from a cost/performance perspective. Other classes might be cheaper but they're also slower (SRF). My perspective is that Boxster has a better future, as the cars are newer and the class growing, but like I prefer 944SuperCup over 944Cup, I'd go F Class Boxster S over Spec for that extra performance. Personal preference, for sure, but I also think it's safer off the front than in the pack, just like in cycling.

M758

Any car you buy will need some updates. For 15k you can buy a realy nice top notch car. As far as work on the car... The cars are reliable if they are built right. The reason many cars fail is due to old parts and guys trying to make those old parts last. I have been racing my car for 10 years now and the first 2 were the worst for reliablity. Once I got throught the period of stuff breaking the car was rock solid. This past 18 months has been very hard on me, but two failures were self imposed and (missed shift banging valves) and one was just one of those deals. Otherwise the car runs. I change the oil and bleed the brakes. I change the tires. Most time between races the car stays in the trailer and never moves. The key is to buy a well sorted car to start with.

M758

I bought a 18 month old used 24 Ft enclosed trailer for a little more than half that price. Feather lights are nice, but a 20-24ft enclosed is hands down better. Of course you need a bigger tow vehicle for the enclosed trailer.


Most guys in Arizona have either a basic open steel trailer or flat tow the car with tow bar. I used to tow with an open steel trailer and tire rack. I did for for something like 8-9 years. It was perfectly fine. I got the 24ft enclosed because it doubles as storage out of the sun for the car and make going to the track easier since 90% of my gear is already packed and ready to tow. The bigger trailer makes event prep easier since I do much less packing both at home before the event and also at the event since I don't need to "uppack" as much stuff to get to what I need.

M758

The down side to the spec boxster right now are two things. 1) initial build is 10k more than a 944. That comes from the donor cost and other items. I have seen J Richard's Boxster and it is nice. Very nice, but that did not come cheap. The other issue is running costs will be more due at a minimum to tires. Larger tires cost more.

As for reliability.... Time will tell for sure. In over 100 races and 10 years I have had something like 3-4 DNF's. I have had issues at the track and had to fix them a few times as well, but part of this due to mix of "wait till it breaks" rather than prevention. Some is due to being really cheap.

Right now I am running on the same block I had back in 2003 when I did a home rebuild. It has not been in the car the entire time, but it is still going. I also have the same gearbox from then too, but did change it out for an LSD box 2 years ago. The old one is still my spare with an open diff. I have been using the same rear wheel bearings and trailing arms since Jan 2003. I did have to replace the CV joints due to wear, but that happens in 10 years of track time.

If you buy a well built and well sorted car it will run strong with minimal work. Many failures are a result of really quick and dirty work at home. You should buy as well built well sorted car. The key is what level of maintenance the first guy put in. The more he did the more careful he was the better. Even so some parts will just wear out. The newest of these cars is 24 years old and most chassis will have well over 100k miles on them.

I still think they are the best value in Porsche Racing these days.

pu911rsr

I'm going to jump into the water here. I've raced a few different configurations of Porsche's over the years and it always ends of being pretty expensive. My "local" track is 500 miles away so I will most likely leave car at track and have it professionally prepped. I've got a 16 year old son I want to introduce to the sport I figure this is a good way to do this. So if anyone knows of a good car for sale please drop me a line. I'll gladly accept any pointers.
Phil

schwank

According to Google it is only 400 miles to Spokane! You could come race out here in the PNW with the 944 Cup group.

pu911rsr

I have a buddy here is Bozeman that does that so that could happen. The economics favor parking car in one place rather than investing in a nice trailer, tow vehicle and all the gas the haul the thing around.
Phil

Spec944 #143

Phil-

There was a guy- Parker- selling his 944 for a good price in Salt Lake City- check the utahscca forums to see if it is still there. the car was pretty solid but it has been sitting for a while.

as for the guy is springfield- you should place on the NASA race at Hallet in June. there should be 15+ 944 cars there.

pu911rsr

#143,
SLC car is sold, thanks for the heads up, someone got a smokin deal.
Phil

911racer

When looking at what car to race, I would start out with 'who do you want to race' Go visit the paddocks and see what the people are like. I know a lot of the 944 spec guys in our area and they are really great people who genuinely want you to do good so that they have more competition. There are plenty of groups that would throw you out of their area for fear you learn something. Not these guys. I am talking about Great Lakes and Mid West.

I have not run against them, well sort of, in my 944 GTS1, but I know them well.

This year is going to be a bit different this year since the 944 GTS1 car is going to get refitted as a 944 spec racer and my main racer is a 2004 GT3 Cup GTS4 car.


So, my advice is race the people, not the car.

Thanks

Ed

multi21

I quoted myself on this because we just had a big race at AutoClub in Fontana and I sprung an oil leak from somewhere just before the last race on Sunday. Car was down on power (passed on the start and on the straight like I was standing still) and the car was running in the "hot box" during 80 % of the race.

Needless to say, the car is at the shop, possibly the head, but we'll see when they call.

The point someone made is that you really need to research the numbers that will be in the class and see if you like them.

I've only raced the 944 spec for less than a year, but I can't tell you how great these guys are. I thought the local SoCal guys were great, but at this race, there were guys from other parts of the country and they're all the same. Really helpful and genuinely nice guys. If there was a competitor that had a mechanical issue, everyone jumped on the car to get it back on track. They all raced super hard, but there were no hard feelings at all in the paddock. Can't say I've ever experienced that at all ever in any forms of competitive motorsports from karts to AX to time trials etc. I don't know what it is, but I like it and it feels good to be racing with those kinds of people.