dbryant61

Not blocking. NASA and BMWCCA are having fun with this one. I would not consider this blocking even if they were in different classes. One of the reasons they grid us by lap time instead of class, and one of the elements that is most fun about racing in PCA, is so that you can almost always have someone to race against. The 911 was working to figure out a way past and the 944 was driving a defensive line to prevent him. That's racing. We should at least be allowed one move to take away the inside line.

Sterling Doc

Tim, would you want a rule that makes this example a black flag incident?

This is an interesting example. You clearly had to back out of the throttle from this, which meets one criteria for blocking in the current PCA guidelines. The other criteria (as I understand them now) is that it was done solely to impede your progress. There was a turn there, and apex curbing, so he could make the argument that his intent was to apex the corner, and not solely to block. This is where things get really muddy and unclear. You're trying to discern driver intent. Also, making a judgement about what is going to have to make the other driver roll out of the thottle is pretty subjective. Some drivers would roll out of the throttle much more quickly than those that are less easily intimidated. In contrast, bumper to door is not subjective - you are, or are not there.

The one move rule is still useful here. You had not established overlap yet when he made his move. Traffic permitting, you could have gone around the outside, keeping the throttle pinned. If he has made his only move, than you know he's stuck there, and the outside is open. You chose to back out of the throttle, and follow him through the traditional line in the corner. If you weren't under pressure, and knew you could get by later (as you did), this is the prudent choice. If you really needed to get by (i.e. second place is on your tail), you could have made the more aggressive move to go around the outside. Now, if he moved *back* outside when you did that, then, that's clearly blocking.

Edit: looking at the video again, this guy is driving pretty erratically, and in this case, making an aggressive move may not be wise. If it were one of the guys I know, and trust, then I'd think about going around the outside, if the pressure was on, and all the above would apply. It looks like you made the right judgement call in this situation, rules notwithstanding.

Sterling Doc

Edit, double post

Tim L

No absolutely not!

Just deal with it, happens all the time. It's racing.

Tim

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winders

Tim,

So you think that even though someone is not up to you yet, you need to cede the corner to them because they might have to slow down if you go to the apex like you normally would?

As you said, the video you provided may not be a good example.

Are you saying that you think someone taking a defensive line that would cause you to have to slow down should be a black flag offense?

Both examples are deliberate and both cause the driver behind to slow down. Should either be black flag offenses??

If the cars are not battling for position (different classes or a same class car being lapped) the prudent thing for the car being caught is to allow the car coming up an easy way by. Maybe you could argue a black flag for the "different classes" scenario. But, I don't see it for the same class/battling for position scenario.

Scott

M758

If you are being lapped... And since I race in slow class I have plenty of experinece being lapped you don't defend at all. Why both you are being lapped and not racing. The exception is when I am racing for position in my class and I know leaving gap will cost me my racing. Then I may not rollover for a lapping car. I still won't try to race them, but I just may not be able to give then room at the first corner they come to. They may have a wait until we come to better place on the track.


BTW... When it comes to cars lapping my I tend to use point bys to make it clearer to them that I see them and that they should pass. Part of racing is dealing with lap traffic. I say dealing with as you want go through it or let it pass you in such a way as to minimize any impact on your racing. Never race lapped cars.

Back on point... Defending vs a car not in your class (or trying to lap you) is dumb in the first place and is not part of racing. The only time you can race a lapped car is if it in class and you have been shuffled around due to pit stops. I had great race with in class car at the end of enduro. I he beat me to the line and I learned later he was already lap ahead. So I was not fighint for position, but for a lap. Then again since we did driver changes I doubt he knew he was lap in front either.

Tim L

First, there is no corner in the video it's a slight kink and there's no need to apex there except to block, the line the car on was not to the apex. Also the car defended in the uphill to the inside. I purposely made a move to the outside he countered (one move) and I came inside. It’s all good.

Like I said there’s no need to be giving out black flags for these judgmental calls. Nobody wants to be black flagged for racing hard. It’s not nanny racing.

I think everyone agrees the “one move” rule is more enforceable and excepted.

Tim

Sean F

of course, none of this matters when you're throwing belts

Tim L

Or your car won't run for some unknown reason!

Tim

M758

Slight kink to one guy can be a fast corner to another guy. Plus a low hp car might want to take the apex just to make the distance shorter. That can be worth a tenth or so....

And there is not requriement for car being lapped to give up thier line to a faster car. They faster car has the responsibility to make safe pass. And of course if you come up on someone really fast they might not know you are there. Of course they should, but is that really a discussion you want to have after the wreck? Point is lapping slower traffic is an entirely different discussion. It is another of race craft that can get over looked. Good racers will tend to slice through traffic with hardly a change in lap time. Some guys lose all kinds of time getting bottled up. Sames goes for the slower cars being lapped. Even then sometimes you just get hosed and in the wrong place at the wrong time and every one get slowed down. I once was in battle for class win when my compeititor was to pass 2 lapped cars in a slower class at the brakezone on the main straight. I was just too far back to follow through. So I waited and could not make a safe pass till the next lap. I ran 2 seconds slower on that lap any my competitor was gone. Then again he might not have been able to make the pass I could have closed up and possible passed him. It is racing sometimes you catch a break and sometimes you don't. I don't fault the two slower cars as they were in battle of thier own.

Streak

This is the exact scenario that doesn't mesh with the PCA "who owns the corner" rule that I brought up earlier. That rule says the 944 had rights to the apex but it impeded Tim's momentum so it's blocking.

This is just becoming nonsense.

Like I said before, we all block all the time according to the current definition.

And if you do away with the "one move" rule you do away with racing. If you can't move you can't effectively race anyone so what's the point.

dbryant61

Recent quotes by some NASA buddies:

"LMAO. First PCA racers dont register months ahead of time b/c it might be too hot. Now they black flag racers for playing defense."

"hahah wow! Glad I do not race with them. Racing would be boring as hell if you couldnt run a defensive line/have to battle it out to get by someone."

"That whole RL thread was a train wreck. The vid shows zero "blocking" the car in front gets to take any line down the track that he wants. As long the car in front isn't moving left and right it is cool. We all know the 1 move rule."

"another event where rich guys can go lapping and say they are racing"

"Perhaps we should start to refer to PCA's racing program as "sport driving" given that they are removing the actual racing element."

Is the rule change period over? If not, we need to flood it with requests for a "one move" rule. I love racing with PCA, but this is making us a laughing stock.

gums

I'm embarrased if that's what they're thinking.
We look pretty stupid then.

Sterling Doc

Some of this is just playing to stereotypes, which isn't constructive, but I the concern of being DQ'd over clean hard racing is real, and may well affect participation.

mikew968

I always thought the driver behind had to "get" safely around the guy in front. Defensive driving is just part of the game. in my book 2 moves is wrong but fair game up to that point. Sounds like the scruts are saying if a guy is faster in a section that I must not impede him and and "let" him by. I thought that was more like DE!!