M758

easy... furled black flag...

However in this case if someone showed me the furled black I would have no idea why since even by the definition of block in CRN (which I don't agree with) what the 12 was doing was NOT BLOCKING. It was taking a defensive line in very predictable and safe manner long before the trailing car made any moves.

gums

Like I said, with none of this sudden swerving crap. Schumacher once did it to Hakkinen as well, for a whole race, to great acclaim. That was before he started that dirty Schublocker swerving for which I now hate him. And I think I've lost interest in little Rosberg too, after those two despicable examples in Bahrain. What the hell was that?

paradisenb

+ 1000

Think about the financial impact on a drover from the NE coming to Sebring or from the SE going the Glen. That is $5k plus event. What if it were the points race? I know I would think long and hard about doing another long distant event.

Well, dah. There has to be a way to give a warning and that warning should convey what the issue is without taking the driver out of the race. If she doesn't get the message, well, that's another story and a justifiable cause for calling them in.

DDun911

had a similar incident at NJMP last with a racer I was chaseing was black flagged and to my mind he was not blocking. It turned out race control had instructed the furled black flag be shown as a warning but the flager did not understand and put out the black and ruined our race. I would not be shocked if that is what happened here. Perhaps we should consider not using the furled black for warning but the passing flag. No matter how blatant the blocking is it should be dealt with after the race there is no way such a judgement call should be made on the fly.

Sterling Doc

There is a point where it becomes dangerous, one move or no. If you make a late move on someone who has a lot of closing speed on you, technically being in the right does not make the carnage any less, or speak to your judgement. You can be "right", and still wrecked! A pattern of that demands intervention as well, incident, or no. Again, it would need to rise the level of being a clear and present danger, not just annoying, or a judgment of questionable sportsmanship, to warrent the black flag.

FrankyV

Your race can be ruined for so many reasons, unnecessary black flags are inexcusable. It's happened to me twice (both times the black flag station said it was a mistake and sent me back out) and is maddening for a back marker, must be hell when when you are competing for the win. And I am am convinced that horrible starter flagging was a major contributing factor to my crash at the Glen. I am not sure if it happens more because of the flagging crew or race control but would gladly pay a higher entry fee to get professional flagging at every event to at least minimize flagging crew errors.

analogmike

I agree. I'd rather have a guy drive all the way down the inside (gives me a sporting chance to draft and pass on the outside) than block me shortly before turn in.

Also TOTALLY agree about not black flagging someone for minor blocking.

gums

Hmmm, then. I dunno, is it possible that we've settled this? In only 8 pages?
Could that be?

Tim L

Some good information posted,

Thanks

I guess there’s a lot of difference of opinion and interpretation of blocking in PCA club racing. I just don’t see driving down the wrong side of the straight blocking, as long as you don’t stop someone’s momentum by moving over late after the car behind has a run on you, this was not the case. Summit point comes to mind, how many times have you seen cars defending on the inside of turn one?

The problem I have is the black flag ruined the race for me and car 12; it was the start of the race. I wasn’t pushing a pass very hard just settling in for a good race. We were very close in speed and lapping in the low 1:01’s with no car behind, I didn’t want to defend the whole race anyway. If the p3 car was on my tail that would have been another story.

What the stewards told the 12 car was you can’t defend your line no matter what. I think it’s total BS. I ran the same line in the fun race the day before! We both agreed before the next race to not defend on the front straight it would have been an interesting race if my fan belt didn’t let go on the first lap.

It’s racing nobody wants a point by!

Tim

M758

I am thinking the sterwards the LRP race had their heads stuck up their asses..

Der ABT

Agree with summit, almost always see at least one entry into turn 1 by the lead car from the inside.

Also if you dont think that professional drivers do it, did you watch the f1 race the other week with the pass made off the track because he was pushed all the way over there, by "1 move"

i dont mind someone running down the inside so much, yeh it can be annoying but as many said racecraft is learned from things like that.

as for black flag vs penalty afterwards, in some cases i could see a black flag being warranted (though not in this video)...the lack of a black flag could hurt someone that is much faster if there are 3 cars lined up...aka your in 3rd guy in 2nd is blocking, 1st is just ahead (or pulling away because of slower blocking car), black flag could let you fight for the win or could do nothing
with that i see it in certain situations, aka Flagrant blocking......
though its nice to be further back and handed a spot, its not how i want to take a spot...id much rather have to work for it....
my first time at sebring got a class win....because the two in front DNF'd...didnt feel much like a win to me.


Would be nice if there was a warning/blocking flag to let you know they will black flag you if you do it again type of deal...just what we need another flag but at least it wouldnt ruin the rrace..

(Just saying its got to take more than 8 pages...i mean he used the work blocking....that means someone on the internet is wrong!!! how can you sit by and not type.)

Going to be sending an email to pca as the other thread is suggesting for rule changes.

Streak

I'm thinking that the black flag should not be involved at all as it is a pretty serious flag and we drivers aren't always sure what it might be for and it usually means to come in or you are being an ahole or dangerous.

Defending does NOT equal ahole.

Maybe the way to go is a furled blue flag pointed at the "offending" driver. That would be pretty clear to me.

See edit above

flatsics

I have been racing with PCA since 2004 and I have never once heard or read that the rule was that you can not defend your position.

That statement by the steward does not agree with what was written in the Club Racing News

I don't have a problem with PCA enforcing rules.
The rules should be clearly defined and easily found and made available to the racers.

Your race should not be ruined by a black flag for blocking, that punishment should be handed out after post race analysis/video review.

The only exception to that should be dangerous blocking, weaving across the track or driving people off the track.


From 11.3 CRN:

To maintain fair competition,
the lead car must be aware that a car
behind could have had a faster exit
speed out of the last corner onto the
straight. Watching the mirrors is part
of the common sense awareness. We
do not follow the “one move rule”
which would give the lead car one
move to block a passing attempt.
Blocking occurs when you make a
move that changes your line and is
solely intended to impede an overtaking
car. You have an option to
use a defensive line but if you choose
that line, you must stay on that
line. Changing that line to prevent
passing is blocking. This normally
occurs entering or exiting the corner,
but blocking is also prohibited on
straights.
For example, driver P1 comes out
of a corner onto a straight and takes
a mid-track line. Because the driver
behind (P2) has set up her car to exit
the last corner with more speed, she
gains track position and closes the
distance to P1 from behind. P2 now
moves right to start a pass, but P1
has not checked the mirrors or has
decided to protect the position with
a move to the right. This is blocking!
To avoid contact P2 has to
drive off track.
Blocking is not fair competition.
It is unsafe, unpredictable,
frustrating, and often causes
racers to make difficult moves to
avoid contact or car damage.



I am all for limiting blocking, and changing the current mindset of how some PCA racers race. There are some real idiots out there when it comes to "defending/blocking".
There is way too much overzealous defending of one's position currently in PCA racing. I am not talking about what went down in the video specifically, but that is part of it.

Where I personally see a lot of it is while coming through traffic(lapping).
Not only do I get blocked and chopped a lot coming through traffic( which isn't that big of problem I can deal with it ) What I see all the time, is racers defending and blocking each other like it's the last lap of the 12 hours of Sebring. It also happens all the time at the starts of races. Higher class cars that get around you at the start(but qualified slower than you) and then "defend" block the hell out of you and force you to make a very aggressive pass to get around them.

Too many people have adopted this strategy as their only way to keep the car behind them. They always drive on the wrong side of the track, slam the door shut and never give anyone a clean line to the inside for an out braking maneuver. You know the type I am talking about,we all do.

What people are doing is denying themselves the opportunity to learn real racecraft. Figure out why that car behind you is faster and learn from it.

I am not saying I have never driven on the wrong side of the track or defended my position. There is a time and a place for it. It just should not be the only tactic you know to keep in front of the car behind you.

MarkM

Streak, did you mean this or are you just trying to keep the thread going?

This entire thread has been devoted to helping define the difference between defending and blocking. The argument is premised on the fact that they are different.

Until your comment, it appeared pretty universal that defending is OK, blocking is not, but there is some grey areas in the definition.

Are you saying we should never alter our line when someone is behind us, or should we get out of the way?

M758

I think there is no reason for a higher class car to race a lower class. Sadly howeve what you can get is guy faster class diving well under the potential of the car vs the top guys in the slower class driving their cars to the absolute limit.

I have had this happen occasional out side of PCA as well where a car 30-40 hp on me and really is in faster class, but for some reason wants to fight me into each corner. I can out drive them through each corner, but don't have the hp to pass on the straights. The worst part is when guy like this gets trapped between me and my competition and due to lower cornering speeds causes my lap times to increase allowing the guy I am racing to drive away.

Even so this not so much about blocking or racecraft, but more about racing an out of class car.