A NEW TREND IN RACING ?
06-28-2012, 04:32 PM
#61
The Penguin King
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Here's what happens when you have a grid of 46 Spec Miatas all trying to get through T1 in first place:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3U9Q3...ature=youtu.be
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3U9Q3...ature=youtu.be
06-28-2012, 04:57 PM
#62
I assume you don't race SM? Since you don't but instead have made up your mind simply based on the fact that you have eyes / ears / nose / mouth / taste buds (maybe 6th sense) and read forum posts I still don't think you can be called an expert witness. I also don't know the racing org you are talking about that the groups run in that you so belittle the SM class for.
Scott
06-28-2012, 05:07 PM
#63
The Penguin King
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Oh, and BTW, we view being allowed to bump draft as a positive thing.
06-29-2012, 12:10 PM
#64
Three Wheelin'
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It sounds like you are saying that racers of cheaper cars, and their cars, should be treated with less respect. Based on what I see in the Spec Pinata series, your vision is reality.
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You can disagree all you want. But I have seen more bump drafting, fender rubbing, and crashing in Spec Pinata races than any other. There is very little respect for other races cars.
Sure. Everyone wants to see how creative the racers can be with their crashes. Everyone knows the crashes are coming and they want to see them.
...
Well, there never should be intentional contact at the club racing level. I understand that mistakes are made, there are mechanical failures, and that accidents happen. What happens in the Spec Pinata races is over the top. It's the culture of the class.
The class didn't get the nicknames "Spec Pinata", "Smash Miata", and "Spinning Monkeys" for nothing.
...
I am not delusional at all. I didn't say that SM has the marketed cornered. Yes, look at Cup car races and the SpecE30 races too. I just happens to think that SM gives you the best "bang" for your buck. Yes, the pun is intended!
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You seem to forget that I have eyes. I see what happens on the track. Based on comments I see from all over the country, CA is not alone in its bumper car status for the SM class.
For whatever reason, contact is accepted...no, expected.
At the professional level, much of the contact I see would result in drive through penalties or fines. It wouldn't be tolerated.
This all started because you said that the 13/13 rule made more sense for expensive cars. I said the only logic that makes any sense there is that cheaper cars are shown less respect on the track. However you slice it, the amount of contact in the SM series shows there is not a lot of respect for the other guys equipment.
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Expert witness?? You really need some help because you are too emotionally invested. I am not belittling the SM class. All I am saying is that there is a lot of contact in the class and that the drivers don't have a lot of respect for the other driver's cars. That's it. You are welcome to spin it and excuse the amount of contact any way you want.
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You can disagree all you want. But I have seen more bump drafting, fender rubbing, and crashing in Spec Pinata races than any other. There is very little respect for other races cars.
Sure. Everyone wants to see how creative the racers can be with their crashes. Everyone knows the crashes are coming and they want to see them.
...
Well, there never should be intentional contact at the club racing level. I understand that mistakes are made, there are mechanical failures, and that accidents happen. What happens in the Spec Pinata races is over the top. It's the culture of the class.
The class didn't get the nicknames "Spec Pinata", "Smash Miata", and "Spinning Monkeys" for nothing.
...
I am not delusional at all. I didn't say that SM has the marketed cornered. Yes, look at Cup car races and the SpecE30 races too. I just happens to think that SM gives you the best "bang" for your buck. Yes, the pun is intended!
...
You seem to forget that I have eyes. I see what happens on the track. Based on comments I see from all over the country, CA is not alone in its bumper car status for the SM class.
For whatever reason, contact is accepted...no, expected.
At the professional level, much of the contact I see would result in drive through penalties or fines. It wouldn't be tolerated.
This all started because you said that the 13/13 rule made more sense for expensive cars. I said the only logic that makes any sense there is that cheaper cars are shown less respect on the track. However you slice it, the amount of contact in the SM series shows there is not a lot of respect for the other guys equipment.
...
Expert witness?? You really need some help because you are too emotionally invested. I am not belittling the SM class. All I am saying is that there is a lot of contact in the class and that the drivers don't have a lot of respect for the other driver's cars. That's it. You are welcome to spin it and excuse the amount of contact any way you want.
Fact is the greater the number of cars in a class, the smaller the variance in cars (i.e. SPEC) - there is of course more potential for contact. That's the nature of the class whether it is $150k GT3 Cup Cars down to a $10k "Pinata".
My original point before we started down this path is that the 13/13 rule working for classes where the price of entry is much higher and the amateur racer often cannot afford to fix it or want their "baby" to look good after the race. The result is a rule that heavily penalizes almost any contact - even where it is fair contact.
On the flip side, where the costs of the car are much lower - rules are set to allow more "rubbing" (not dumba$$ moves). This rule may allow more fair contact but it has nothing to do about LACK OF RESPECT of fellow drivers or our equipment. Instead, it's about racing for position (frankly top guys in SM cars are some of the best amateur racers in the country). They hone their skills in cars that are essentially the same - meaning the driver is by far the biggest factor and a reason why SM is a driver development series (part of the Teen ladder program to professional race careers). Many other classes the car makes the difference rather than the driver so drivers don't get to practice much racecraft and push themselves as hard and as far.
Now from what you have personally seen (which I have no idea) and read on an Internet forum does not give you the right to judge SM drivers and say we don't respect our fellow racers or our equipment.
06-29-2012, 02:43 PM
#65
Is it really me who is emotionally invested?
Fact is the greater the number of cars in a class, the smaller the variance in cars (i.e. SPEC) - there is of course more potential for contact. That's the nature of the class whether it is $150k GT3 Cup Cars down to a $10k "Pinata".
My original point before we started down this path is that the 13/13 rule working for classes where the price of entry is much higher and the amateur racer often cannot afford to fix it or want their "baby" to look good after the race. The result is a rule that heavily penalizes almost any contact - even where it is fair contact.
On the flip side, where the costs of the car are much lower - rules are set to allow more "rubbing" (not dumba$$ moves). This rule may allow more fair contact but it has nothing to do about LACK OF RESPECT of fellow drivers or our equipment. Instead, it's about racing for position (frankly top guys in SM cars are some of the best amateur racers in the country). They hone their skills in cars that are essentially the same - meaning the driver is by far the biggest factor and a reason why SM is a driver development series (part of the Teen ladder program to professional race careers). Many other classes the car makes the difference rather than the driver so drivers don't get to practice much racecraft and push themselves as hard and as far.
Now from what you have personally seen (which I have no idea) and read on an Internet forum does not give you the right to judge SM drivers and say we don't respect our fellow racers or our equipment.
Fact is the greater the number of cars in a class, the smaller the variance in cars (i.e. SPEC) - there is of course more potential for contact. That's the nature of the class whether it is $150k GT3 Cup Cars down to a $10k "Pinata".
My original point before we started down this path is that the 13/13 rule working for classes where the price of entry is much higher and the amateur racer often cannot afford to fix it or want their "baby" to look good after the race. The result is a rule that heavily penalizes almost any contact - even where it is fair contact.
On the flip side, where the costs of the car are much lower - rules are set to allow more "rubbing" (not dumba$$ moves). This rule may allow more fair contact but it has nothing to do about LACK OF RESPECT of fellow drivers or our equipment. Instead, it's about racing for position (frankly top guys in SM cars are some of the best amateur racers in the country). They hone their skills in cars that are essentially the same - meaning the driver is by far the biggest factor and a reason why SM is a driver development series (part of the Teen ladder program to professional race careers). Many other classes the car makes the difference rather than the driver so drivers don't get to practice much racecraft and push themselves as hard and as far.
Now from what you have personally seen (which I have no idea) and read on an Internet forum does not give you the right to judge SM drivers and say we don't respect our fellow racers or our equipment.
"Fair contact"? See here is where you made your mistake. There is a reason PCA does not allow contact (13/13) and NASA has its "Incident Review Board". At the club racing level, most organizations don't want to see contact. Why are there rules about contact? Much of it is about safety. But they are also trying to legislate respect for other people's cars.
Your argument that it is all about racing for position in near equal inexpensive cars by some of the top amateur drivers in the country. Well, I agree that it is all about racing for position and with that comes a lack of concern for the other guys car or even their own car. The contact is part of the culture of the class which is directly related to the cost of the cars and what the governing bodies allow. They really don't care if they damage the bodywork on another car or their own car as long as they net a better result. Is that respect for the cars? Maybe you should look up the definition of "respect" and some its synonyms.
I have no real issues with what goes on in the Spec Pinata class. Well, sometimes things do go over the top. I am pretty sure that most everyone that goes racing there has a pretty good idea as to what happens and what they are getting in to. I took exception with your comment that 13/13 type rules only work in classes with expensive cars and your justifications for all the contact. That is bogus. Expensive is relative.
Scott
Last edited by winders; 06-29-2012 at 03:42 PM.
06-29-2012, 03:21 PM
#66
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
06-29-2012, 04:29 PM
#67
Rennlist Member
Oh boy...
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"Fair contact" is an unfortunate term.
"Racing Incidents" are defined in NASA, and other organizations. These are less bad than say, a punt or a wreck, but no one likes contact, in any series or sanctioning body.
To a degree, the higher the intensity of racing, the more risk. Multipy this by lots of cars (SM), and more contact is going to happen. To some extent, it's the price of racing at that level. Worth it to some, not to others.
I think Joel is try to differentiate bone head moves from tire donuts. The average SM racer is going to be less upset by a donut than a guy racing ST2 in a shiny new Viper, on average, but both guys are going to be livid if they are T-boned in an ill-conceived dive bomb attempt, and similar penalties should follow.
Scott's point is the flipside of this. Tire donuts, and minor contact are more tolerated as an inevitable outcome of the volume and intensity of SM racing, if not encouraged. All it takes is a few bad apples to skew on region's individual experience a to a great degree. How well a region/sanctioning body deals with these drivers is important to the long-term outcome.
06-29-2012, 04:35 PM
#68
Oh boy...
---------
"Fair contact" is an unfortunate term.
"Racing Incidents" are defined in NASA, and other organizations. These are less bad than say, a punt or a wreck, but no one likes contact, in any series or sanctioning body.
To a degree, the higher the intensity of racing, the more risk. Multipy this by lots of cars (SM), and more contact is going to happen. To some extent, it's the price of racing at that level. Worth it to some, not to others.
I think Joel is try to differentiate bone head moves from tire donuts. The average SM racer is going to be less upset by a donut than a guy racing ST2 in a shiny new Viper, on average, but both guys are going to be livid if they are T-boned in an ill-conceived dive bomb attempt, and similar penalties should follow.
Scott's point is the flipside of this. Tire donuts, and minor contact are more tolerated as an inevitable outcome of the volume and intensity of SM racing, if not encouraged. All it takes is a few bad apples to skew on region's individual experience a to a great degree. How well a region/sanctioning body deals with these drivers is important to the long-term outcome.
---------
"Fair contact" is an unfortunate term.
"Racing Incidents" are defined in NASA, and other organizations. These are less bad than say, a punt or a wreck, but no one likes contact, in any series or sanctioning body.
To a degree, the higher the intensity of racing, the more risk. Multipy this by lots of cars (SM), and more contact is going to happen. To some extent, it's the price of racing at that level. Worth it to some, not to others.
I think Joel is try to differentiate bone head moves from tire donuts. The average SM racer is going to be less upset by a donut than a guy racing ST2 in a shiny new Viper, on average, but both guys are going to be livid if they are T-boned in an ill-conceived dive bomb attempt, and similar penalties should follow.
Scott's point is the flipside of this. Tire donuts, and minor contact are more tolerated as an inevitable outcome of the volume and intensity of SM racing, if not encouraged. All it takes is a few bad apples to skew on region's individual experience a to a great degree. How well a region/sanctioning body deals with these drivers is important to the long-term outcome.
Scott
06-29-2012, 05:33 PM
#69
Racer
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Who said SM cars are cheaper than Porsches? I've seen plenty of spec miatas that cost more than some E class cars and certainly 944s. $10k is the bottom of the barrel in SM. Top SM guys have $35k-45k+ in their cars.
Suspensions and disqualifications make a lot more sense to me than $2500 fines and "suggestions" to pay for the other guys repairs (>> $2500).
If you can't show respect for other people's cars and safety you won't be welcome. Seems to work fine in most regions...
And if you can't handle the possibility of a dent in your viper or new Porsche you probably should be sticking to DEs
Suspensions and disqualifications make a lot more sense to me than $2500 fines and "suggestions" to pay for the other guys repairs (>> $2500).
If you can't show respect for other people's cars and safety you won't be welcome. Seems to work fine in most regions...
And if you can't handle the possibility of a dent in your viper or new Porsche you probably should be sticking to DEs
07-01-2012, 02:13 AM
#72
I have witnessed multiple deaths on the race track. You aren't going to make feel bad for not embracing contact.
Easier? That depends on the competition. It doesn't take any skill to get run into or run into someone else.
Scott
07-01-2012, 11:11 PM
#73
Three Wheelin'
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I'll ask again Scott - have you raced a Spec based series before? Reason why I ask this is you said "we" (that includes me and Mike who both race Miatas - and we are not the only ones on Rennlist who do) don't respect each other's hardware which you base simply on observation and Internet posts.
Maybe I should have been better describing what "fair contact" meant. Eric (whom I've raced against for the last 3 years in 944 Spec) did a great job describing it.
I just got back from a race weekend in SM and I'm beat. There's nothing like racing for position with multiple cars for 20-30 laps straight with passes and repasses and great driving.
Maybe I should have been better describing what "fair contact" meant. Eric (whom I've raced against for the last 3 years in 944 Spec) did a great job describing it.
I just got back from a race weekend in SM and I'm beat. There's nothing like racing for position with multiple cars for 20-30 laps straight with passes and repasses and great driving.
07-01-2012, 11:33 PM
#74
I'll ask again Scott - have you raced a Spec based series before? Reason why I ask this is you said "we" (that includes me and Mike who both race Miatas - and we are not the only ones on Rennlist who do) don't respect each other's hardware which you base simply on observation and Internet posts.
Maybe I should have been better describing what "fair contact" meant. Eric (whom I've raced against for the last 3 years in 944 Spec) did a great job describing it.
I just got back from a race weekend in SM and I'm beat. There's nothing like racing for position with multiple cars for 20-30 laps straight with passes and repasses and great driving.
Maybe I should have been better describing what "fair contact" meant. Eric (whom I've raced against for the last 3 years in 944 Spec) did a great job describing it.
I just got back from a race weekend in SM and I'm beat. There's nothing like racing for position with multiple cars for 20-30 laps straight with passes and repasses and great driving.
Have you raced 600cc motorcycles before?? I have. So what??
I never said you, specifically, did not respect other racer's cars. But then, I have never specifically referenced you one single time in this thread in regards to the carnage I have seen on the track and in videos. Have I?
Again, you are taking this way too personally....
Scott
Last edited by winders; 07-02-2012 at 12:01 AM.
07-02-2012, 08:13 AM
#75
The Penguin King
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
If we put Danica Patrick in a Spec Miata and raced against her, she could beat 99.9% of the drivers on this board.
Next topic?
Next topic?
