Insights from HPDE instructors wanted
08-10-2012, 11:05 AM
#61
Rennlist Member
i have no place in this discussion, but, from a student position i would add a thing here.
it applies equally to how i do my day time job when we speak with our clients - in any communication channel it is critical to sense a moment when amount of information you transfer over starts to overwhelm the brain of a person you speak with. when i drive with instructors we always get a conversation up front on how we proceed - i ask them to watch what I do, then for 2-3 laps I want very detailed instruction on turn by turn basis with comments on all - 'correct', 'too early by 6 inches', etc., then in next 2 laps i start to speak of what i intend to do, where i aim the car, where I see the apex, then on next laps instructor speaks back.
as if i just try to drive and do not speak back describing what I am about to do and why after I got initial input and just try to work in 'shut up, drive and listen to me' mode - that information input from an instructor that does not stop in 4-5 laps makes my brain to simply shut down, i notice that I almost stop reacting to that input as i do not have enough CPU cycles left to drive and think of what I am supposed to be doing in next turn as i am too pre-occupied with thinking of what went wrong based on all comments still coming about a last turn.
frankly, that part of 'thinking of where you screwed up on that last turn' is the most dangerous thing in my opinion as it distracts the hell out of me, personally, especially when you go fast enough and it requires 100% of a concentration to do all things right at each subsequent corner. yet with no thinking about it you cannot fix it next time, so, all comments are required, but they require some 'absorption' time, and I bet some people are better than others in this regard. but this 'dual channel' thing works best for me personally, when i start talking in details of what i do and instructor can choose either to correct that on the fly or wait until he will take over the channel and give his vision of what should be done and why.
and this _why_ part is indeed critical. speak more about suspension work, speak more about how to pre-position the car, speak of _why_ driving line should be what it should be as that is a critical element for a student to understand how to make any line work, in a lot of sessions people I drove with were not really up to speaking about it, only 2 or 3 instructors i worked with were able to explain in very simple ways how to work your suspension, how to drive so your springs help you to keep grip optimal, how to deal with line adjustments when needed and plan ahead, how to deal with situation when you either forced to miss badly bu other car, object, etc. on the road and how to compensate.
that is pretty much what I wanted to say most - a lot of people teach 'stay on line' thing. if student has no clue 'why' line is where it is - he cannot 'stay' on it, as driving by visual references alone is by much a BS approach, as you gain speed all references shift and you will miss out badly. but if you start to understand why driving line is where it is, how to 'draw' this line in your brain - it is a totally different game, may be it is my AX experience why I think this way about it as at AX you have to 'draw' this line every time but it is how I think about it and if it does not make much sense then I am sorry i interfered here, as it is not my place to tell you what to do and what not to.
it applies equally to how i do my day time job when we speak with our clients - in any communication channel it is critical to sense a moment when amount of information you transfer over starts to overwhelm the brain of a person you speak with. when i drive with instructors we always get a conversation up front on how we proceed - i ask them to watch what I do, then for 2-3 laps I want very detailed instruction on turn by turn basis with comments on all - 'correct', 'too early by 6 inches', etc., then in next 2 laps i start to speak of what i intend to do, where i aim the car, where I see the apex, then on next laps instructor speaks back.
as if i just try to drive and do not speak back describing what I am about to do and why after I got initial input and just try to work in 'shut up, drive and listen to me' mode - that information input from an instructor that does not stop in 4-5 laps makes my brain to simply shut down, i notice that I almost stop reacting to that input as i do not have enough CPU cycles left to drive and think of what I am supposed to be doing in next turn as i am too pre-occupied with thinking of what went wrong based on all comments still coming about a last turn.
frankly, that part of 'thinking of where you screwed up on that last turn' is the most dangerous thing in my opinion as it distracts the hell out of me, personally, especially when you go fast enough and it requires 100% of a concentration to do all things right at each subsequent corner. yet with no thinking about it you cannot fix it next time, so, all comments are required, but they require some 'absorption' time, and I bet some people are better than others in this regard. but this 'dual channel' thing works best for me personally, when i start talking in details of what i do and instructor can choose either to correct that on the fly or wait until he will take over the channel and give his vision of what should be done and why.
and this _why_ part is indeed critical. speak more about suspension work, speak more about how to pre-position the car, speak of _why_ driving line should be what it should be as that is a critical element for a student to understand how to make any line work, in a lot of sessions people I drove with were not really up to speaking about it, only 2 or 3 instructors i worked with were able to explain in very simple ways how to work your suspension, how to drive so your springs help you to keep grip optimal, how to deal with line adjustments when needed and plan ahead, how to deal with situation when you either forced to miss badly bu other car, object, etc. on the road and how to compensate.
that is pretty much what I wanted to say most - a lot of people teach 'stay on line' thing. if student has no clue 'why' line is where it is - he cannot 'stay' on it, as driving by visual references alone is by much a BS approach, as you gain speed all references shift and you will miss out badly. but if you start to understand why driving line is where it is, how to 'draw' this line in your brain - it is a totally different game, may be it is my AX experience why I think this way about it as at AX you have to 'draw' this line every time but it is how I think about it and if it does not make much sense then I am sorry i interfered here, as it is not my place to tell you what to do and what not to.
Last edited by utkinpol; 08-10-2012 at 11:53 AM.
08-10-2012, 02:56 PM
#63
Rennlist Member
08-10-2012, 03:12 PM
#64
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I will never, ever forget the sheer joy, excitement and sense of achievement he had on Sunday afternoon when I trailered out.
08-10-2012, 03:32 PM
#65
Three Wheelin'
Some background...
I first drove on the track at Lime Rock in 1987 with Schattenbaum. I had never done AX or any type of "performance driving" (not even karting), nor had I really done much "approaching of limits" on the street. My car at the time was a 944. I had watched "Going Faster!" a few times with some colleagues at Siemens. One was starting out in Club Ford and had attended the Skip Barber School at LRP, the other was an avid motorcycle racer. We watched and discussed several times. I had also read the Bondurant book a few times. My prep allowed me to understand several important elements of basic theory and some very valuable vocabulary. And I had a good start with understanding the line.
Pete Tremper was in charge of the event (thanks again Pete, 25 years later). My instructor was a woman (originally from somewhere overseas as I recall) with a lightweight 911. The experience not only helped me get started, but it also stamped an impression regarding instruction. It was really fun.
Later I drove with Steinlifters at Blackhawk, and then moved here to CA. My first PCA DE/Time Trial here was in '95 or so, and if I recall correctly, the CDI for the Golden Gate Region (GGR) was Tom Van Overbeek. A great enthusiast and teacher and fellow racer. Later I started instructing with the GGR, with most of that time under Henry (Hank) Watts as CDI. Hank was incredible as a CDI, and the majority of the instructor core at the time was highly focused and team-oriented. It was quite something. Quite a bit of that legacy I am sure influenced the PCA national cert program I have no doubt.
So I became an instructor having taken advantage of the excellent resources within PCA. This process made me ready for pretty much everything I have experienced as an instructor. Reticent drivers, no problem. Spontaneous end-of-day ride with a woman with a brand new 996 TT who revealed she was deaf when I got in the car, nor problem. Young male knuckleheads, no problem. Folks with poor concentration, no problem. Lots and lots of different kinds of students in different kinds of cars and in different situations.
So, what do I wish I had known?
It has been a struggle to come up with something since I was so well prepped, but I think after all these years I'd say I wish I had known more about the range of "instruction" I'd witness from other "trained and experienced" instructors that I would eventually encounter. Early on, I was taken aback a few times by this. It didn't affect me too much because I was able to get the students straightened out.
I first drove on the track at Lime Rock in 1987 with Schattenbaum. I had never done AX or any type of "performance driving" (not even karting), nor had I really done much "approaching of limits" on the street. My car at the time was a 944. I had watched "Going Faster!" a few times with some colleagues at Siemens. One was starting out in Club Ford and had attended the Skip Barber School at LRP, the other was an avid motorcycle racer. We watched and discussed several times. I had also read the Bondurant book a few times. My prep allowed me to understand several important elements of basic theory and some very valuable vocabulary. And I had a good start with understanding the line.
Pete Tremper was in charge of the event (thanks again Pete, 25 years later). My instructor was a woman (originally from somewhere overseas as I recall) with a lightweight 911. The experience not only helped me get started, but it also stamped an impression regarding instruction. It was really fun.
Later I drove with Steinlifters at Blackhawk, and then moved here to CA. My first PCA DE/Time Trial here was in '95 or so, and if I recall correctly, the CDI for the Golden Gate Region (GGR) was Tom Van Overbeek. A great enthusiast and teacher and fellow racer. Later I started instructing with the GGR, with most of that time under Henry (Hank) Watts as CDI. Hank was incredible as a CDI, and the majority of the instructor core at the time was highly focused and team-oriented. It was quite something. Quite a bit of that legacy I am sure influenced the PCA national cert program I have no doubt.
So I became an instructor having taken advantage of the excellent resources within PCA. This process made me ready for pretty much everything I have experienced as an instructor. Reticent drivers, no problem. Spontaneous end-of-day ride with a woman with a brand new 996 TT who revealed she was deaf when I got in the car, nor problem. Young male knuckleheads, no problem. Folks with poor concentration, no problem. Lots and lots of different kinds of students in different kinds of cars and in different situations.
So, what do I wish I had known?
It has been a struggle to come up with something since I was so well prepped, but I think after all these years I'd say I wish I had known more about the range of "instruction" I'd witness from other "trained and experienced" instructors that I would eventually encounter. Early on, I was taken aback a few times by this. It didn't affect me too much because I was able to get the students straightened out.
08-10-2012, 03:58 PM
#66
Three Wheelin'
So here is one example I use with students and fellow instructors often:
Semi-private DE/track event at Thunderhill a few years ago. The organizer(s) asked an "experienced instructor" friend/participant to work with a few folks early in the experience curve and/or new to the track. We are in the classroom and I am enjoying my McDonalds big breakfast while he starts describing the line. I am sitting in the back just listening.
He says "as you approach turn 1, remember that the arc is very wide. You will start the day braking pretty heavily, but your goal by the end of the day should be to go through there with, at most, a light lift. No car here really needs to brake for that turn. Are there any questions?"
A couple of folks raise their hands. One asks about the location of the apex. One asks about what he thinks is a slight elevation change. Since he asked for questions, I raise my hand and ask, "Isn't it a good goal to slow down enough, and just enough, and at just the right time to go through that corner with the widest arc and achieve the highest possible exit speed? And if your car needs a brake input to achieve that, then so be it?"
He says, "Good question. Yes generally, but in my experience, cars don't need to brake there to slow down enough, at least none of the cars at this event." "Folks tend to brake there and they really don't need to. They overslow." So I respond, well, my car needs brake input there, as do most of my friends with similar cars who are here."
He responds, "What kind of car?" I respond, "A Porsche 911 race car." He then says, "I bet if you work on it, you will discover that you don't have to brake. I bet you can do it."
After he is finished with the rest of his "chalk talk," he leaves, and about 2/3 of the group approach me (by now I have finished my pancakes). They ask me to go over everything again. One is an experienced Mazda racer, new to the track. So we get through the day, a Friday, without incident. Then we have a race weekend. Then on Sunday as I am loading up the car, the Mazda guy comes over and thanks me.
Don't even get me started about the "group instructor" I heard describing turns 3, 4, 5 and 6 at Laguna as "all 90 degree turns." Then some student immediately goes out and totals his car in 3. Yikes.
Semi-private DE/track event at Thunderhill a few years ago. The organizer(s) asked an "experienced instructor" friend/participant to work with a few folks early in the experience curve and/or new to the track. We are in the classroom and I am enjoying my McDonalds big breakfast while he starts describing the line. I am sitting in the back just listening.
He says "as you approach turn 1, remember that the arc is very wide. You will start the day braking pretty heavily, but your goal by the end of the day should be to go through there with, at most, a light lift. No car here really needs to brake for that turn. Are there any questions?"
A couple of folks raise their hands. One asks about the location of the apex. One asks about what he thinks is a slight elevation change. Since he asked for questions, I raise my hand and ask, "Isn't it a good goal to slow down enough, and just enough, and at just the right time to go through that corner with the widest arc and achieve the highest possible exit speed? And if your car needs a brake input to achieve that, then so be it?"
He says, "Good question. Yes generally, but in my experience, cars don't need to brake there to slow down enough, at least none of the cars at this event." "Folks tend to brake there and they really don't need to. They overslow." So I respond, well, my car needs brake input there, as do most of my friends with similar cars who are here."
He responds, "What kind of car?" I respond, "A Porsche 911 race car." He then says, "I bet if you work on it, you will discover that you don't have to brake. I bet you can do it."
After he is finished with the rest of his "chalk talk," he leaves, and about 2/3 of the group approach me (by now I have finished my pancakes). They ask me to go over everything again. One is an experienced Mazda racer, new to the track. So we get through the day, a Friday, without incident. Then we have a race weekend. Then on Sunday as I am loading up the car, the Mazda guy comes over and thanks me.
Don't even get me started about the "group instructor" I heard describing turns 3, 4, 5 and 6 at Laguna as "all 90 degree turns." Then some student immediately goes out and totals his car in 3. Yikes.
08-10-2012, 04:16 PM
#67
Interesting thread - subscribing 
I'm new to the instructing world as far as car DE's go - only officially instructed once in a car. Our region is having an "instruct the instructor" class this winter and I'd like to get more into it. I love running on the track and love the idea of being able to light the fire for new folks. I've seen my wife and a few friends go through it (and offered bits of advice on the side) and it's a ton of fun watching them "get it".
So while I don't have any real DE instructing experience - I DO have a bunch of experience coaching motorcycle racers. But that's quite a bit different - there is no such thing as "Real time" on a bike since you're generally both on separate machines! Plus it was all folks of the same mindset - motorcycle racers. They just wanted to "go faster". Even a question as simple as asking your student, "what's your goal here?" is one that hadn't occurred to me! (I was fortunate that my first and only DE student I had earlier this year had some track experience and was looking to get into racing - so we were a good match.) But from what I did learn from my motorcycle instructing days, others here have pointed out already and I'll share again:
- If you tell them to 'follow the line' then that's what they'll do, and where they'll look - right at the ground, right in front of their bike (car), looking directly at the imaginary 'line'. However, if you teach them reference points instead, they will learn much more quickly to look ahead from one reference point to the next and connect the dots that guide them around the track.
- TURN YOUR HEAD. I often told my students to over-exaggerate their head movement and TURN their head to LOOK for their next reference point, don't just move your eyeballs. First, it makes it easier for me to see that they are looking ahead, and second - it really does work. Just when you think (as a beginner) you've turned your head too far - that winds up being "just right." Plus it just gets your whole body more engaged in the experience.
- Positive reinforcement. If they improve in an area throughout the day, make sure to point it out that you noticed, almost be a cheering section for them. Have a student struggling with a late apex, and they FINALLY get it right? Applause, and "There ya go - great job! See how that felt?"If you spend the day just pointing out stuff they did wrong, they'll come away not as motivated. With confidence comes ability.
I'm new to the instructing world as far as car DE's go - only officially instructed once in a car. Our region is having an "instruct the instructor" class this winter and I'd like to get more into it. I love running on the track and love the idea of being able to light the fire for new folks. I've seen my wife and a few friends go through it (and offered bits of advice on the side) and it's a ton of fun watching them "get it".
So while I don't have any real DE instructing experience - I DO have a bunch of experience coaching motorcycle racers. But that's quite a bit different - there is no such thing as "Real time" on a bike since you're generally both on separate machines! Plus it was all folks of the same mindset - motorcycle racers. They just wanted to "go faster". Even a question as simple as asking your student, "what's your goal here?" is one that hadn't occurred to me! (I was fortunate that my first and only DE student I had earlier this year had some track experience and was looking to get into racing - so we were a good match.) But from what I did learn from my motorcycle instructing days, others here have pointed out already and I'll share again:
- If you tell them to 'follow the line' then that's what they'll do, and where they'll look - right at the ground, right in front of their bike (car), looking directly at the imaginary 'line'. However, if you teach them reference points instead, they will learn much more quickly to look ahead from one reference point to the next and connect the dots that guide them around the track.
- TURN YOUR HEAD. I often told my students to over-exaggerate their head movement and TURN their head to LOOK for their next reference point, don't just move your eyeballs. First, it makes it easier for me to see that they are looking ahead, and second - it really does work. Just when you think (as a beginner) you've turned your head too far - that winds up being "just right." Plus it just gets your whole body more engaged in the experience.
- Positive reinforcement. If they improve in an area throughout the day, make sure to point it out that you noticed, almost be a cheering section for them. Have a student struggling with a late apex, and they FINALLY get it right? Applause, and "There ya go - great job! See how that felt?"If you spend the day just pointing out stuff they did wrong, they'll come away not as motivated. With confidence comes ability.
08-13-2012, 01:01 AM
#69
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Nov 2004
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You actually bring up a great point. There are times when being a teacher / instructor is simply no longer needed and you become a driver's coach instead. No longer teaching elemental skills / theories and principles - you move on to finite skill adjustments / reviewing video / talk mental states / psyche of driving. Of course this is when you have a more advanced student.
08-13-2012, 01:33 AM
#70
Race Director
+1
Different people have different objectives.
Tailor the instruction to the objective.
Most just want to have fun without hitting anything. Some appreciate and can understand the higher level stuff.
The ones that scare me say "I just wanna go fast!"
Different people have different objectives.
Tailor the instruction to the objective.
Most just want to have fun without hitting anything. Some appreciate and can understand the higher level stuff.
The ones that scare me say "I just wanna go fast!"
08-13-2012, 01:36 AM
#71
Race Director
Turning your head actually looking at the student (and what they are doing/looking at) can be pretty revealing.
Using/not using vision properly, death grip on the steering wheel ... listening to breathing (shallow and fast isn't good) etc. all good things to recognize
Using/not using vision properly, death grip on the steering wheel ... listening to breathing (shallow and fast isn't good) etc. all good things to recognize
