Falcondrivr

I am going to try to sell a different griding procedure as there are definitely better ways to do it.
With a little more research, I've determines that expanded passing is only allowed in the instructor run group. However, non- instructors are allowed to run in this group. We actually began running this way a couple of years ago and it stopped for whatever reason. My personal feeling is that it's time to reopen the page there...
Thanks everyone for the suggestions and replies! Please keep them coming.

Flying Finn

Time wise (per session), that looks pretty good.

Someone suggested 20 minute sessions which IMO are really bad, way too short. You get for some turbo owner for 2 laps at Sebring and you've blown 1/4 of your session, then one lap later, similar thing and half is gone.
Also, with short session, you can't "work" on anything, especially on long tracks like Sebring.

Alan Herod

A couple of observations --

There have been some really creative ideas posted on here, I am sure that there are many that we shoud be looking at.

Texas and Florida probably shouldn't use the same length sessions as New York and Ohio in the middle of summer. We have found that longer sessions work well in the cooler weather. July and August provides longer days and more sunlight; but, drivers have some difficulty keeping up with hydration. Instructors who chose to take advantage of all their time have a higher risk from the heat.

We have two instructor groups as well with extended passing in both. Putting 70 to 80 cars on Summit Point or even VIR makes it less fun for the drivers in faster cars as well as the ones in slower cars.

I always get grief from someone who doesn't get enough track time - (5 run groups with an equal amount of track time).

We have taken it down to the minute with respect to track time, e.g. 22, 23, 27, minute sessions to attempt to get every minute out of the day.

Not all tracks allow hot changeover.

The more sessions per run group, the more warm up and cool down laps. With the same amount of time available, one more session means two less laps at speed.

We usually have a hip-pocket back-up plan to combine run groups and further optimize track time... if that happens on day three good, if it happens on day two better.

todinlaw

First thing i would say to you at this point is turn around and run as fast as hell the other way, lol, this can be a thankless job.

everyone has an opinion about how to do things and thankfully PCA allows for a fair amount of interpretation of the rules.

Just a few points, my view only, 25 min. run sessions is a good number, 20 at most tracks is to short and by the time you get tires warmed up your about 3 laps from done. 30 min sessions in warm weather can be a long haul, not only do you have to think about the inexperienced driver on over load but the instructor who may have to jump in and out of back to back assignments. In 90 degree heat this is no fun.

So we shoot for 4 25 minute sessions. Our region normally will buy extra track time if needed. buying an additional hr, is cheap compared to the normal day rate on track rental.

Extended passing, we are allowed to have non instructors in the extended passing group if they are equally qualified. For example, we put on a club race and advanced DE the same weekend. we do put club racers in the expanded passing group. we often may have two groups designated that way if they fit the qualifications.

I should not give away our secrets but things to consider, most DE's have a track orientation ride, where new students go out with an instructor helmets off and the instructor drives his car or the student car. the purpose is to point out flags, the line, and how to get on and off the track.

Then the first time student goes out as speed with no clue about brake inputs and so on. So we started giving the Green student, a 10 min ride with there instructor at 7/10 speed, before there first on track session to give them some idea of what to expect.

Later the instructor may take them out again for a full session after they have worked with them for awhile and had a chance to see what things he may need to focus on.

On other thing I would put out there is that some regions do a threshold brake drill with the green student, where we just have them line up on the track accelerate to 70 and threshold brake. we do for a full session they may get 4 to 6 shots. we have the instructor do it first then swap with the student in the student car. We teach them how to go we need to teach how to stop.

Good luck and don't be afraid to think outside the box.

Alan Herod

X2 -- I convinced my wife who seemed only somewhat ambivalent, to take over the Registrar job. I am the DE Chair -- sometimes I question my sanity.

At your first event you will learn who else has an opinion and is more than willing to tell you that someone else's method is better.

mglobe

LSR, HCR, and MAV all use the first green session as an orientation for the novice students. It is run without helmets, and under full course caution. The instructor drives the first two or three laps, then we pull into the hot pits, and the instructor and student change seats. The student drives the rest of the session.

Falcondrivr

I've been "registrar in waiting" for about a year. Believe me, I know what opinions are like....
That's kid of why I agreed to take the job. Figured I should quit bitchin' and fix it, or shut up...

utkinpol

i hate any schedule where i see more than 4 groups scheduled to run. it is also a waste of time to have 20min sessions - how many clean laps you can get in 20min? most optimal schedule is 4 groups 30min each.

unfortunately, in reality PCA is all about pecking order than about driving, you always have separate session for red group that on most events is simply empty with just a handful of cars on the track, then you get into combined groups where you have a mix of various drivers, so, as for registrar i would say it is for best to limit number of 'colors' and concentrate on driving etiquette and enforcement of passing rules so everyone would be aware of people ahead and people behind and would remember that it is _required_ to look into mirrors and _required_ to give a pass by if you got 2 or more cars stuck behind you. Ideal DE day format would be to isolate those who never saw track before, then have a group for all instructed drivers, then a group for all solo drivers and a group for all top level drivers with open passing, preferably.

nothing annoys more than a track day with short 20min sessions where you hardly get a single clean lap for a whole session as for the rest of time you just sit on somebody`s tail waiting for them to notice your presence and then you have to go into pits in a hope for an another possibility of a clean lap just to get stuck behind somebody else. after a while you just stop coming to such events as it is nothing but a waste of time and money.

a good sample of great planned PCA event is how hudson valley schedules WGI events - with just 2 run groups there and pretty long sessions, as it is a long track with many passing opportunities.
we got together on a driver meeting after first session, discussed the track and overall confidence level among those who was running in our combined solo/instructed group, discussed what sections folks felt good about to give a pass and where we will give passing signals and on what side, after that there were no issues at all as everyone knew what to do, where to do it and how to act. so what i am saying here - in order to have a great event is it not a critical issue of how many various groups you make up, it is all about communication within that given run group and strict enforcement of passing rules, about awareness of drivers so everyone is ready to do what is supposed to be done and about overall respect to each others time,money and skill level so beginners don`t get scared of cars gaining on them with 30mph diff from behind nor those who drive 20sec faster lap times get frustrated as beginners are unable to figure out how to give them a pass-by without making them to brake hard and lose speed. or even worse - a deliberate ignorence with an attitude 'i do not have to let anybody go around me, go back to pits if you do not like it'. it is enough to get 2-3 cars with such jerks to ruin whole event and that means you entire vacation time off, tires, hotel, all money you spent went for nothing as you cannot drive around them. every time when i hear at PCA drivers meeting those words 'you do not have to give a pass-by if you do not feel like it ' - it`s a very bad sign. there are several clubs here in east coast that support such crap, and to run with any of them is often quite frustrating.

pontifex4

Paul, you cannot require me to give you a point-by. Sure, I can be courteous and give one when I see you coming, but I will do so only if I'm ready to. Think about it.

Whether you know it or not, what you're telling us is that DE isn't for you.

utkinpol

if you`re not ready to give a pass by as you collected train of cars behind you you have to be black flagged and moved to run in a lower run group.

there are plenty of clubs that do exactly that and it works way better than having 4-7 car trains formed that go like that for several laps as someone like you is not sure if he is 'ready' yet to give anybody a pass or not. such dilemma can only be acceptable in a green run group and there is an instructor in the car for that to make passing decision. in a solo run groups it is a disaster.

and this 'I can be courteous' attitude is exactly what I hate most. it leads to problems and it leads to accidents as people are not sure what to expect. on a clean DE event you do not have to lift as you approach for a pass as people see you and let you go, i let them go and they let me go, it is not even a mental process, it is an automatic movement of a hand when you see someone gaining on you behind. granted i run my DEs mostly with drivers who race or are advanced but it does not change this topic. all i am speaking here is a generic DE etiquette. you do have combined groups, you have various people who came here to drive, some may be pro level drivers who came to learn this track and may be slow on some laps and very fast on other laps, some are beginners who drive at their top abilities, but everybody should be aware of each other as that is what DE is about - to drive clean and to let others to drive, not about 'i may be courteous'.

i find it to be an indication of a total lack of skill when you are forced to slow down, get off your normal running pace and wait for a car ahead to let you go. same is when i see faster cars behind me - i do not at all think it is not 'required' for me to let them go as i do see very clear who is faster than me or just wants to get ahead and i always let them go as we all came here with same goal to drive fast and spent a lot of $ to have this fun.

Doug007

No amount of driver awareness and etiquette will allow "clean laps" when there is a 20 second pace difference within a group.

Think about it for a second. If you are trying to do a 2:00 lap in a group with others doing 2:20s, you are going to have to cleanly pass about 5 cars per lap with 30 cars on the track. That is just not possible without open passing, and even then you won't have a "clean lap" as you will have to go offline in some corners to get around.

The best solution is to as closely match the pace within the group as possible. This means more groups. I don't see how 2 groups could work unless everyone is very experienced (we do solo only DEs at club race events and that works but only because instructed green and blue students can't attend)

If you're looking for clean laps you are probably better off doing time trials with NASA or getting a closely paced run group so you all can drive "flat out"

utkinpol

beleive me or not - everything is possible when people respect each other and adjust to each other`s style. like a driving with mixed groups with very light open wheel low hp cars helps in this area a lot.
i am not saying you`ll get every lap clean. all i say - a club should react and black flag those who have 2 or more cars stuck behind them for more than 2 subsequent corners. once you got that part done rest will follow and magically traffic self-regulates and people somehow start paying attention to rear view mirror.

how many groups to run is very dependent of a track layout, lenght and number of passing zones, obviously. and you were right - there are time trials, open track days, private clubs with open passing, you just need $ to feed your appetite. still, a good clean DE within PCA is also possible and there are clubs that know well how to run clean event. by now i know them all, it is pointless to start holy war about it, but all i want to say - it is possible to get things done well enough.

mglobe

The purpose of this thread was to discuss DE schedules, not to debate passing methodology. If you want to discuss that Paul, I suggest that you start a thread on the topic. It will no doubt be entertaining.

vantage

My suggestions based on regular HPDEs I attend out on the west coast:

1. Reduce sessions to 25 minutes. (Edit: I just saw your point above about beginners running 3 minute laps, so fair enough.) Marginal benefit of those last few laps is not high IMO, especially for beginners. Yes, there is some transactional cost associated with shorter sessions, but overall this will help you squeeze in another session.

2. Get rid of an instructor only group. Instead, divide groups by skill level. If you have a lot of instructors / advanced drivers, then have two advanced groups. Spec Miatas should not be in the same advanced group as 911 Cup Cars.

3. For the lower skill level run groups, make them run their touring laps during their first session of the day. There's no sense in burning this time for everyone. Or if you insist, do it earlier. Red group should be the first group out and it shouldn't be a 40 min session (see above).

4. You are wasting a lot of time during the lunch hour and 25 min track tour. That's 1:25 in the middle of the day that nobody can drive. First, lunch does not need to be an hour because the sessions are staggered. If you reduce lunch to 45 min, people will still get over an hour for lunch because their sessions are not all at the same time. They just won't be able to eat at same time.

5. As for the track tour, this should be part of the parade laps in the morning. Anyone can join, since they are just lead follow and the # of cars on track doesn't matter. Again, you are wasting 25 minutes here.

With these suggestions, you can easily fit in another session for everyone, maybe even two if day light allows.

todinlaw

We have had some issues with people being unreasonable about giving points, either because they were not observant, and not safe or had an attitude problem. We try to fix both of those issues before it gets to far out of hand.