Petition to PCA to publish overtaking and 13/13 issuance rules
06-05-2013, 06:48 PM
#46
NASA Racer
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There is no reason why this can't be a productive dialogue on an important topic that we all talk about at every race in the paddock
06-05-2013, 06:57 PM
#47
The Penguin King
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06-05-2013, 07:28 PM
#48
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I've been lurking in the weeds reading the threads from WG and this thread and believe I need to chime in.
First, a little background.
I did my rookie race at the first Road America Club Race in 1993, which I believe was the 8th race ever. I've race every year since and try to race as often as my budget, career and marriage allows. I was the event chair for the first two Brainerd club races. I became involved on the national level with club race in 1995, served on the Club Racing Advisory Committee for two years in the late 90's and started working as a steward in 2000. Bryan H and I have stewarded a couple of races......I was the national chief steward when John Crosby was chair and served as national chair for 4 years, with Bryan as chief steward. I continue to steward today, as well as race, and also race in other sanctioning bodies.
Pat Moyle, who was the steward at the first RA club race in 1993 said at the Orientation Meeting: "The driver making the pass is responsibe for making the pass safely. The driver being passed and the driver passing both have the responsibility to co exist. The driver that is ahead at turn in "has the corner" but doesn't own the corner, since he has the responsiblity to co exist."
That's been the rule in PCA CR since the beginning.
The notes that I use in the Orientation Meeting today were given to me by Monte Smith, when I first started stewarding in 2000.
I can guaranty you that none of the stewards enjoy making the at fault decision in a car to car incident.
I can also guaranty you that all of the stewards work very hard to "get it right".
We have only 10 stewards. All of us work at least 3 races a year, some work more. We meet in person every two years to spend a weekend talking about the program and various issues and spend a minimum of a half day reviewing video of incidents to make sure that all of us are on the same page regarding our at fault decisions. We also have conference call during the year to discuss the program and circulate reports among the stewards after every event discussing the event and specifically our decisions on 13/13's.
Several years ago when I was chairman we decided to eliminate the single car 13/13. I for one found it draconian.
We've also eliminated various other punitive elements of the program (there was a time that if your hood flew up and hit your windshield and damaged your own car, you could get a 13).
Many of our stewards have had 13/13's themselves. I have.
We've all found over time that in almost all 13/13 incidents there wasn't malice on the part of the at fault driver. Rather there was a momentary decision or series of decisions made that were wrong. Frankly, that's why we don't publish the names of racers who get 13/13's as the incidents are rarely intentional. In the rare circumstances of something more than a simple mistake we have taken more stringent action, including permanently suspending drivers.
My advice to those who don't quite understand our rules and procedure is to attend the Orientation Meeting at their next club race. Everyone and anyone is welcome. Having experienced racers in the meeting is an assistance for our Rookies, who are the life blood of the program.
Frankly, besides being something I am very passionate about, I also think the PCA Club Racing program is an extremely well run, non political organization run by volunteers with the best expectations of and for our racers in mind. The changes that have been made to the program each year and specifically in the last couple of years have, IMHO, significantly improved the program.
I'll be the steward at the upcoming Mosport club race.
Stop into the OM and we can talk more.
Or catch me at any of the dinners, although you should expect to buy me a suitable adult beverage if you want to get into a discussion with me.
Have fun.
Remember this is club racing.
First, a little background.
I did my rookie race at the first Road America Club Race in 1993, which I believe was the 8th race ever. I've race every year since and try to race as often as my budget, career and marriage allows. I was the event chair for the first two Brainerd club races. I became involved on the national level with club race in 1995, served on the Club Racing Advisory Committee for two years in the late 90's and started working as a steward in 2000. Bryan H and I have stewarded a couple of races......I was the national chief steward when John Crosby was chair and served as national chair for 4 years, with Bryan as chief steward. I continue to steward today, as well as race, and also race in other sanctioning bodies.
Pat Moyle, who was the steward at the first RA club race in 1993 said at the Orientation Meeting: "The driver making the pass is responsibe for making the pass safely. The driver being passed and the driver passing both have the responsibility to co exist. The driver that is ahead at turn in "has the corner" but doesn't own the corner, since he has the responsiblity to co exist."
That's been the rule in PCA CR since the beginning.
The notes that I use in the Orientation Meeting today were given to me by Monte Smith, when I first started stewarding in 2000.
I can guaranty you that none of the stewards enjoy making the at fault decision in a car to car incident.
I can also guaranty you that all of the stewards work very hard to "get it right".
We have only 10 stewards. All of us work at least 3 races a year, some work more. We meet in person every two years to spend a weekend talking about the program and various issues and spend a minimum of a half day reviewing video of incidents to make sure that all of us are on the same page regarding our at fault decisions. We also have conference call during the year to discuss the program and circulate reports among the stewards after every event discussing the event and specifically our decisions on 13/13's.
Several years ago when I was chairman we decided to eliminate the single car 13/13. I for one found it draconian.
We've also eliminated various other punitive elements of the program (there was a time that if your hood flew up and hit your windshield and damaged your own car, you could get a 13).
Many of our stewards have had 13/13's themselves. I have.
We've all found over time that in almost all 13/13 incidents there wasn't malice on the part of the at fault driver. Rather there was a momentary decision or series of decisions made that were wrong. Frankly, that's why we don't publish the names of racers who get 13/13's as the incidents are rarely intentional. In the rare circumstances of something more than a simple mistake we have taken more stringent action, including permanently suspending drivers.
My advice to those who don't quite understand our rules and procedure is to attend the Orientation Meeting at their next club race. Everyone and anyone is welcome. Having experienced racers in the meeting is an assistance for our Rookies, who are the life blood of the program.
Frankly, besides being something I am very passionate about, I also think the PCA Club Racing program is an extremely well run, non political organization run by volunteers with the best expectations of and for our racers in mind. The changes that have been made to the program each year and specifically in the last couple of years have, IMHO, significantly improved the program.
I'll be the steward at the upcoming Mosport club race.
Stop into the OM and we can talk more.
Or catch me at any of the dinners, although you should expect to buy me a suitable adult beverage if you want to get into a discussion with me.
Have fun.
Remember this is club racing.
06-05-2013, 07:30 PM
#49
Banned
The car making a pass has the responsibility to complete a clean pass.
The car ahead at turn in has the corner. That means if you are not at least even, you should back out and follow the other car through the corner. If you are even then you must leave racing room.
Everyone must leave racing room. That means you cant hit people on purpose or run them off the track. It means you cant keep pressing when you have not earned a right to be there by your position at turn in. It does not mean that if you are pushing a pass you did not earn by being even or better at turn in and you get hit that you will not get a 13-13. It means that in some situations it is possible for two or more drivers to get a 13-13 sanction.
The car ahead at turn in has the corner. That means if you are not at least even, you should back out and follow the other car through the corner. If you are even then you must leave racing room.
Everyone must leave racing room. That means you cant hit people on purpose or run them off the track. It means you cant keep pressing when you have not earned a right to be there by your position at turn in. It does not mean that if you are pushing a pass you did not earn by being even or better at turn in and you get hit that you will not get a 13-13. It means that in some situations it is possible for two or more drivers to get a 13-13 sanction.
06-05-2013, 07:36 PM
#50
Pat Moyle, who was the steward at the first RA club race in 1993 said at the Orientation Meeting: "The driver making the pass is responsibe for making the pass safely. The driver being passed and the driver passing both have the responsibility to co exist. The driver that is ahead at turn in "has the corner" but doesn't own the corner, since he has the responsiblity to co exist."
That's been the rule in PCA CR since the beginning.
That's been the rule in PCA CR since the beginning.
What does "co exist" mean in this context?
What should happen at turn in if there is 75% overlap? What happens if the lead car runs into the trailing car in an attempt to get to the apex?
Scott
06-05-2013, 08:24 PM
#53
?
06-05-2013, 08:29 PM
#54
The answer is actually much simpler than the 4 pages of complexity above.
If you are going to pass someone, get it done.
If someone is passing you, don't block them, chop them, or hit them.
At all times, in all scenarios, coexist and give racing room.
Or as the guy who taught me said....
1" you going to pass this guy or not?"
2" Don't hit stuff"...
If you are going to pass someone, get it done.
If someone is passing you, don't block them, chop them, or hit them.
At all times, in all scenarios, coexist and give racing room.
Or as the guy who taught me said....
1" you going to pass this guy or not?"
2" Don't hit stuff"...
06-05-2013, 08:36 PM
#55
I will at some point as the budget allows. PCA just doesn't have that many interesting Club Races out here in CA. So, I race with the PRC (usually runs with NASA) which has a series and a season long championship for the class my car runs in.
The Club Races that are held out this way don't have a high turnout and my car has few cars to race with or against.
I would really like to have another Rennsport Reunion event at Laguna Seca. That is an event I would like to participate in.
Regardless, I should be able to ask questions and discuss PCA Club Racing rules, right? I am a PCA member.....
Scott
06-05-2013, 08:41 PM
#56
Rennlist Member
I really don't get most of this.
This does not need to be complicated, nor is it. Passing is not difficult, nor is being passed in an amateur "gentleman's" series.
Why so much angst? Why so much paralysis by analysis?
This does not need to be complicated, nor is it. Passing is not difficult, nor is being passed in an amateur "gentleman's" series.
Why so much angst? Why so much paralysis by analysis?
06-05-2013, 08:54 PM
#57
Glen,
I will at some point as the budget allows. PCA just doesn't have that many interesting Club Races out here in CA. So, I race with the PRC (usually runs with NASA) which has a series and a season long championship for the class my car runs in.
The Club Races that are held out this way don't have a high turnout and my car has few cars to race with or against.
I would really like to have another Rennsport Reunion event at Laguna Seca. That is an event I would like to participate in.
Regardless, I should be able to ask questions and discuss PCA Club Racing rules, right? I am a PCA member.....
Scott
I will at some point as the budget allows. PCA just doesn't have that many interesting Club Races out here in CA. So, I race with the PRC (usually runs with NASA) which has a series and a season long championship for the class my car runs in.
The Club Races that are held out this way don't have a high turnout and my car has few cars to race with or against.
I would really like to have another Rennsport Reunion event at Laguna Seca. That is an event I would like to participate in.
Regardless, I should be able to ask questions and discuss PCA Club Racing rules, right? I am a PCA member.....
Scott
Best
G
06-05-2013, 09:05 PM
#58
NASA Racer
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Thread Starter
Let's not lose sight of the fact the point of all this was to simply publish the rules as they exist.
Bryan has done that in this thread. I would think it would be pretty straight forward to include them as written in the PCA rule book going forward.
The bigger question is are they right, consistently applied and could they be improved. That is a larger conversation and where this thread is now headed.
And, I for one am tired of guys using the 13 as a weapon and not leaving racing room because they know you will get the 13 as the overtaking car.
Bryan has done that in this thread. I would think it would be pretty straight forward to include them as written in the PCA rule book going forward.
The bigger question is are they right, consistently applied and could they be improved. That is a larger conversation and where this thread is now headed.
And, I for one am tired of guys using the 13 as a weapon and not leaving racing room because they know you will get the 13 as the overtaking car.
06-05-2013, 09:08 PM
#59
I have a dry wit and tend to be sarcastic as well. I am sure your noticed that. I appreciate the commentary and the discussions. I love learning and the best way for me to do that is to immerse myself in the sport, ask questions, and challenge what does not make sense to me.
It would be great to meet you too and I would be happy to codrive with you some day. I suspect it would be good for me to get some more car racing experience first though!
Thanks!
Scott
06-05-2013, 09:19 PM
#60
++++++++++++
1) The PCA Club Racing Rulebook needs to include a section(s) regarding “On Track Behavior”. By this I mean:
a. What are the rules regarding passing? What is “Giving Racing Room”? What is “Coexistence”?
b. What is the definition of “Blocking”?
c. What is the guidelines for a receiving a 13/13?
d. What is the appeals process for a 13/13?
It seems like the spirit of the PCA Club Racing rulebook is “We’re all gentlemen having fun, so we don’t need to write down a lot of details”. But PCA Club Racing has gotten significantly complicated. I think these issues need to be written down so they can be discussed and a common framework agreed upon.
+++++++++++++
- Jim Sherman