How do you coach racecraft and/or proper aggression?
10-29-2013, 09:42 AM
#31
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Everyone is making some very good points, but I would say ProCoach really just hit the nail on the head for me. Unfortunately, the sixth member of our team is my wife. I say unfortunately because in no way shape or form can I instruct her. When I have tried it just leads to "husband criticizing." It's weird, though, as last year I hired Dave at Watkins Glen and mentioned that maybe next year she use Dave for coaching, but for some reason she did not seem that overly excited about the idea even after I raved about Dave (deflate your head now Dave 
). Nonetheless, everyone on the team has tried to coach her some, but, like I said when I started this post, I think ProCoach nailed it and one of her main deficiencies is the physics of the car.
I learned what little I know about the physics of cars by "playing" with them when I was a teenager - dirt roads, autocrosses, reverse bootleg 180's, but I digress. I broke my share of cars but I also learned some small amount of control - I also watched NASCAR on ESPN, the coverage is amazing... She drove Volvo's and would have never dreamed of being in a Porsche on a track as a kid. So, she is starting from scratch on the skills.
Another issue I think is she is a very competitive person and when she sees the rest of us late braking, making "aggressive" passes and generally moving through the field she wants to do that. The problem is her wants and her skill level are in two different places right now.
So, now that you know it is one of the female types what are your suggestions
). Nonetheless, everyone on the team has tried to coach her some, but, like I said when I started this post, I think ProCoach nailed it and one of her main deficiencies is the physics of the car.I learned what little I know about the physics of cars by "playing" with them when I was a teenager - dirt roads, autocrosses, reverse bootleg 180's, but I digress. I broke my share of cars but I also learned some small amount of control - I also watched NASCAR on ESPN, the coverage is amazing... She drove Volvo's and would have never dreamed of being in a Porsche on a track as a kid. So, she is starting from scratch on the skills.
Another issue I think is she is a very competitive person and when she sees the rest of us late braking, making "aggressive" passes and generally moving through the field she wants to do that. The problem is her wants and her skill level are in two different places right now.
So, now that you know it is one of the female types what are your suggestions
Point #1: gender is irrelevant
Point #2: you may be selling your wife short on the talent department, based on how quickly I watched her come up to speed this past May at the Glen, a track she had never driven before, in your 993 racer.
Point #3: regarding this comment "when she sees the rest of us late braking, making "aggressive" passes and generally moving through the field she wants to do that"...yeah her wants and experience are at two different points right now...but IMO let her find her own ways to move through the field, rather then allowing her to get drawn into trying to copy the techniques you guys use. Think about that, John... I will bet real $$$ that she can actually do this, if she is encouraged to find her OWN path to get there...
F'ing 7th century misogynist savages.
10-29-2013, 09:55 AM
#32
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Everyone is making some very good points, but I would say ProCoach really just hit the nail on the head for me. Unfortunately, the sixth member of our team is my wife. I say unfortunately because in no way shape or form can I instruct her. When I have tried it just leads to "husband criticizing."
The problem is her wants and her skill level are in two different places right now.
So, now that you know it is one of the female types what are your suggestions
The problem is her wants and her skill level are in two different places right now.
So, now that you know it is one of the female types what are your suggestions
Made her so frustrated, she cried when I lost my composure, because I was frustrated with her. Taught me a valuable lesson twenty years ago... One that's made me a MUCH better resource today.
On your second point, THIS is the fundamental issue. THIS can be fixed!
Lastly, GREAT!
I don't think her gender changes the advice much.
I was thinking, perhaps she should keep a log, or at least a page of notes, of not only passes she attempted (and possibly completed), but also about passes made on her.
Certainly I learned a lot of my "race craft" by being on the receiving end of it. I was several races into PCA Club Racing before I did a real pass on a real competitor for a real class position.
I was thinking, perhaps she should keep a log, or at least a page of notes, of not only passes she attempted (and possibly completed), but also about passes made on her.
Certainly I learned a lot of my "race craft" by being on the receiving end of it. I was several races into PCA Club Racing before I did a real pass on a real competitor for a real class position.
Let's approach this as a learning process difference and encourage approaches that she can buy into, because they're HERS, not yours...
I have seen some brilliance in Cheryl's driving so I think at some point or another she must be hanging it out on the edge.
It took her some time, but she eventually got within a few seconds of our quickest times. I feel as though she became comfortable.
I think the biggest problem is the pressure has not been lifted from her yet to know that we have all at one point or another as competitive drivers messed up.
Cheryl, im sure you will read this. You have the skill set and competitiveness to be as quick as any of the guys out there.
Youre the fastest chick i know in a car!
It took her some time, but she eventually got within a few seconds of our quickest times. I feel as though she became comfortable.
I think the biggest problem is the pressure has not been lifted from her yet to know that we have all at one point or another as competitive drivers messed up.
Cheryl, im sure you will read this. You have the skill set and competitiveness to be as quick as any of the guys out there.
Youre the fastest chick i know in a car!
Very accurate assessment, and more than likely one of the fundamental challenges for her to transcend the difference between her reach and her grasp, to do better. You give her big credit, which is what she needs.
My lady driver clients are some of the fastest drivers in the country in their respective arenas. Debbie Cloud in a Trans Am car and Sprint Cup car, Edie Arrowsmith in her Porsches, "Old Yeller" and a McLaren Can Am car are two of the great ones. We've worked together for years and their success is one of the reasons why the percentage of women clients I have is greater than the general percentage of women racing.
The challenges of being a woman in this testosterone addled, male DOMINATED world are difficult to comprehend for many men. The high achieving women I ahve worked with are hugely self critical and FEEL THAT PRESSURE, a lot!
They HAVE to let themselves off the hook first. They must be treated as worthy, valid contributors to the team. They have to be treated as though they are a racer seeking to do better, not as a "woman racer." The latter is rather irrelevant.
My experience is that women are more thoughtful, think things through better, make better on-track decisions when equipped with the knowledge to do so and can be just as effective, safe and fast (perhaps even more so) as male club-level drivers of similar experience.
This is a great discussion and I know with her continued gathering of experience, combined with banishing the outside pressure and eliminating the self-constructed expectations that she invariably builds in anticipation, she can get the job done.
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-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
10-29-2013, 10:44 AM
#34
Three Wheelin'
Lol, some of you guys are sensitive . I was just making light of the fact that the driver is female (if you read back in the posts everyone says "he/him" when talking about the "driver" - I agree, it does not change a single thing, except the wife part, that makes for some tension as Peter mentions above.
Dave - I am not trying to sell her short. She does have skills and in the DE atmosphere she can be fast. We also AX sometimes and before I would have no problems being well ahead her. Over the years she has gotten very quick and there have been times I was concerned by her times.
Mo brings up a good point and Peter continues the thought, the feeling of pressure because she is a woman in a predominately man's sport. As a team, I have seen plenty of support for her and her driving, even when she makes mistakes. I do my best to encourage her, but unfortunately I think just my presence can cause her undue pressure. Part is my fault for sure, when I have watched video of her and I see where she could go faster or where she made an unwise move, I treat her like one of the guys and just say something like "see here, you could have ducked inside that guy" or "you're missing this apex, try xyz" or whatever. I forget that I am from Mars and I need to watch and point out all the things that she does well first, then I can ease into the other stuff.
I agree this is a great thread, thanks Jim, and thanks guys.
. I was just making light of the fact that the driver is female (if you read back in the posts everyone says "he/him" when talking about the "driver" - I agree, it does not change a single thing, except the wife part, that makes for some tension as Peter mentions above.Dave - I am not trying to sell her short. She does have skills and in the DE atmosphere she can be fast. We also AX sometimes and before I would have no problems being well ahead her. Over the years she has gotten very quick and there have been times I was concerned by her times
.Mo brings up a good point and Peter continues the thought, the feeling of pressure because she is a woman in a predominately man's sport. As a team, I have seen plenty of support for her and her driving, even when she makes mistakes. I do my best to encourage her, but unfortunately I think just my presence can cause her undue pressure. Part is my fault for sure, when I have watched video of her and I see where she could go faster or where she made an unwise move, I treat her like one of the guys and just say something like "see here, you could have ducked inside that guy" or "you're missing this apex, try xyz" or whatever. I forget that I am from Mars and I need to watch and point out all the things that she does well first, then I can ease into the other stuff.
I agree this is a great thread, thanks Jim, and thanks guys.
10-29-2013, 10:47 AM
#35
Rennlist Member
Lol, some of you guys are sensitive . I was just making light of the fact that the driver is female (if you read back in the posts everyone says "he/him" when talking about the "driver" - I agree, it does not change a single thing, except the wife part, that makes for some tension as Peter mentions above.
Dave - I am not trying to sell her short. She does have skills and in the DE atmosphere she can be fast. We also AX sometimes and before I would have no problems being well ahead her. Over the years she has gotten very quick and there have been times I was concerned by her times.
Mo brings up a good point and Peter continues the thought, the feeling of pressure because she is a woman in a predominately man's sport. As a team, I have seen plenty of support for her and her driving, even when she makes mistakes. I do my best to encourage her, but unfortunately I think just my presence can cause her undue pressure. Part is my fault for sure, when I have watched video of her and I see where she could go faster or where she made an unwise move, I treat her like one of the guys and just say something like "see here, you could have ducked inside that guy" or "you're missing this apex, try xyz" or whatever. I forget that I am from Mars and I need to watch and point out all the things that she does well first, then I can ease into the other stuff.
I agree this is a great thread, thanks Jim, and thanks guys.
. I was just making light of the fact that the driver is female (if you read back in the posts everyone says "he/him" when talking about the "driver" - I agree, it does not change a single thing, except the wife part, that makes for some tension as Peter mentions above.Dave - I am not trying to sell her short. She does have skills and in the DE atmosphere she can be fast. We also AX sometimes and before I would have no problems being well ahead her. Over the years she has gotten very quick and there have been times I was concerned by her times
.Mo brings up a good point and Peter continues the thought, the feeling of pressure because she is a woman in a predominately man's sport. As a team, I have seen plenty of support for her and her driving, even when she makes mistakes. I do my best to encourage her, but unfortunately I think just my presence can cause her undue pressure. Part is my fault for sure, when I have watched video of her and I see where she could go faster or where she made an unwise move, I treat her like one of the guys and just say something like "see here, you could have ducked inside that guy" or "you're missing this apex, try xyz" or whatever. I forget that I am from Mars and I need to watch and point out all the things that she does well first, then I can ease into the other stuff.
I agree this is a great thread, thanks Jim, and thanks guys.
10-29-2013, 11:04 AM
#36
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That is the essence of a successful coaching strategy. For anyone, of either gender...
10-29-2013, 11:05 AM
#37
Instructor
(I'm knocking on all the wood I can see at this point for this weekend)! John although I can't lend any of the advice of the pro coaches would she be interested in maybe going through some questions about some of the passing, race craft and aggressiveness with me after this lemons and maybe even at RADE next year. Maybe a familiar person might be of help. I do agree with the guys that data with a real coach is so valuable. I've done it before and even the slightest alterations made huge gains for me, but there may be just some slight things a ride along may adjust. It's been about six or so years since I took her out and we've never rode together with her driving.
10-29-2013, 11:35 AM
#38
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There's a big difference in the risks I'll take when I'm sprinting my own car (or other vehicle 
) versus being a member of an endurance team.
If I screw up w my own vehicle, during a sprint race, it's no big deal. Lessons learned, more garage time fixing stuff, whatever.
But if you lay an egg during an endurance race, you might have 3/4/5 other team members whose day gets cut short. That's a big factor in how aggressive you want to be, especially when you're still learning the ropes.
In addition to having the husband get 20 miles away during her races, I'd say to put her in her *own* car, give her a sense of ownership of the whole process (prep/trackside/post-race repairs/maintenance), and stand back.
) versus being a member of an endurance team. If I screw up w my own vehicle, during a sprint race, it's no big deal. Lessons learned, more garage time fixing stuff, whatever.
But if you lay an egg during an endurance race, you might have 3/4/5 other team members whose day gets cut short. That's a big factor in how aggressive you want to be, especially when you're still learning the ropes.
In addition to having the husband get 20 miles away during her races, I'd say to put her in her *own* car, give her a sense of ownership of the whole process (prep/trackside/post-race repairs/maintenance), and stand back.