How do you coach racecraft and/or proper aggression?
10-28-2013, 01:00 PM
#1
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
How do you coach racecraft and/or proper aggression?
Ok folks - question for the brain trust here.
I'm on a Lemons team with 5 other folks. All but one of us has real life racing experience... some of us, fairly extensive racing experience. One does not have ANY. Need advice on how to coach/teach some racecraft.
The non-racer in the group is very experienced at DE, is a *very* good DE driver, comfortably runs in the black group at PCA DE events, is an instructor in our region, etc. Just zero racing experience... and they seem to freeze up a bit, or (probably more accurately) get caught up in being overly-polite (like you do when in DE) when in heavy traffic. The rest of us on the team are all trying to help this person out... but it hasn't been easy, we're all kinda stumped at how to coach this stuff, as for each of us (myself included) it feels more instinctual than cerebral. We generally run GoPro cameras in the car and can watch this person run, and it's clear they're trying to take our advice (sneaking up inside folks, etc.) but not really applying it properly. Either waiting too long to make a move, or not seeing an opportunity, or not running defensive enough, leaving the door open and letting slower cars by, etc.
I think I'm a pretty good driving coach as far as getting someone around the track but when it comes to helping them ID a good time to pass, or when to abort, *ahead of time*, is tough. I can watch video all day long and point out "you should've passed there" or "you shouldn't have tried to pass there" but I have a tough time really narrowing the criteria down, etc. And even if I did, I don't want to overload this person with all this "thinking" and checklists or what-not about when it's OK or not OK to take a chance.
In other words... this person just needs to be more aggressive. How do you coach that? How do you coach "good" aggressive vs. "bad" aggressive to someone who isn't aggressive at all?
All that comes to mind for me is to just throw them off into the deep end of the pool and force them to learn by experience. But then this is also supposed to be fun, and we're all good friends, so sending them out there to be terrified, intimidated, or frustrated, for a 2.5 hour stint just doesn't sound like a whole lot of fun or a very nice thing to do, ya know?
I'm on a Lemons team with 5 other folks. All but one of us has real life racing experience... some of us, fairly extensive racing experience. One does not have ANY. Need advice on how to coach/teach some racecraft.
The non-racer in the group is very experienced at DE, is a *very* good DE driver, comfortably runs in the black group at PCA DE events, is an instructor in our region, etc. Just zero racing experience... and they seem to freeze up a bit, or (probably more accurately) get caught up in being overly-polite (like you do when in DE) when in heavy traffic. The rest of us on the team are all trying to help this person out... but it hasn't been easy, we're all kinda stumped at how to coach this stuff, as for each of us (myself included) it feels more instinctual than cerebral. We generally run GoPro cameras in the car and can watch this person run, and it's clear they're trying to take our advice (sneaking up inside folks, etc.) but not really applying it properly. Either waiting too long to make a move, or not seeing an opportunity, or not running defensive enough, leaving the door open and letting slower cars by, etc.
I think I'm a pretty good driving coach as far as getting someone around the track but when it comes to helping them ID a good time to pass, or when to abort, *ahead of time*, is tough. I can watch video all day long and point out "you should've passed there" or "you shouldn't have tried to pass there" but I have a tough time really narrowing the criteria down, etc. And even if I did, I don't want to overload this person with all this "thinking" and checklists or what-not about when it's OK or not OK to take a chance.
In other words... this person just needs to be more aggressive. How do you coach that? How do you coach "good" aggressive vs. "bad" aggressive to someone who isn't aggressive at all?
All that comes to mind for me is to just throw them off into the deep end of the pool and force them to learn by experience. But then this is also supposed to be fun, and we're all good friends, so sending them out there to be terrified, intimidated, or frustrated, for a 2.5 hour stint just doesn't sound like a whole lot of fun or a very nice thing to do, ya know?
10-28-2013, 01:08 PM
#2
Rennlist Member
Ah...IMO this is where a good coach makes his or her money... 
10-28-2013, 01:20 PM
#3
Rennlist Member
What is this driver's perception? Does he feel out of his element? Does he feel "taken advantage of" or "abused" out there? Does he want to "turn up his aggression"?
I think you have to start by figuring out what his goals are - not necessarily what your (or the rest of the team's) goals are. If you did the "sink or swim" method, would he *not* have fun?
Fundamentally, you're comparing "technique" with "attitude" - one is certainly more "teachable" than the other. But that doesn't mean the other can't change... it just might need a different catalyst to start that change.
I think you have to start by figuring out what his goals are - not necessarily what your (or the rest of the team's) goals are. If you did the "sink or swim" method, would he *not* have fun?
Fundamentally, you're comparing "technique" with "attitude" - one is certainly more "teachable" than the other. But that doesn't mean the other can't change... it just might need a different catalyst to start that change.
10-28-2013, 01:23 PM
#4
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What VR said.
I didn't read the original post through, but I agree with Dave and have this to say.
The best way to improve racecraft and hasten proper, data-driven decision making that has a high likelihood of success is to become familiar with the physics of race cars, their trajectories, inertia and characteristics that make them move in a certain way.
Then the next area of study is strategic thinking that allows you not to make a last minute decision but instead, put into place the building blocks of opportunity and to take that opportunity when it arises (as it inevitably will).
I didn't read the original post through, but I agree with Dave and have this to say.
The best way to improve racecraft and hasten proper, data-driven decision making that has a high likelihood of success is to become familiar with the physics of race cars, their trajectories, inertia and characteristics that make them move in a certain way.
Then the next area of study is strategic thinking that allows you not to make a last minute decision but instead, put into place the building blocks of opportunity and to take that opportunity when it arises (as it inevitably will).
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Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
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-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
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10-28-2013, 02:05 PM
#8
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What VR said.
I didn't read the original post through, but I agree with Dave and have this to say.
The best way to improve racecraft and hasten proper, data-driven decision making that has a high likelihood of success is to become familiar with the physics of race cars, their trajectories, inertia and characteristics that make them move in a certain way.
Then the next area of study is strategic thinking that allows you not to make a last minute decision but instead, put into place the building blocks of opportunity and to take that opportunity when it arises (as it inevitably will).
I didn't read the original post through, but I agree with Dave and have this to say.
The best way to improve racecraft and hasten proper, data-driven decision making that has a high likelihood of success is to become familiar with the physics of race cars, their trajectories, inertia and characteristics that make them move in a certain way.
Then the next area of study is strategic thinking that allows you not to make a last minute decision but instead, put into place the building blocks of opportunity and to take that opportunity when it arises (as it inevitably will).
If you want it boiled down further, shoot the gap, but only when appropriate.
10-28-2013, 02:07 PM
#9
Three Wheelin'
Just get out there and do it, practice makes perfect and Lemons sounds like a great place to start. Enstill a few basicis (don't dive bomb, get fully alongside, "skin" the car you're passing) and go have fun!
10-28-2013, 02:24 PM
#10
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
What VR said.
I didn't read the original post through, but I agree with Dave and have this to say.
The best way to improve racecraft and hasten proper, data-driven decision making that has a high likelihood of success is to become familiar with the physics of race cars, their trajectories, inertia and characteristics that make them move in a certain way.
Then the next area of study is strategic thinking that allows you not to make a last minute decision but instead, put into place the building blocks of opportunity and to take that opportunity when it arises (as it inevitably will).
I didn't read the original post through, but I agree with Dave and have this to say.
The best way to improve racecraft and hasten proper, data-driven decision making that has a high likelihood of success is to become familiar with the physics of race cars, their trajectories, inertia and characteristics that make them move in a certain way.
Then the next area of study is strategic thinking that allows you not to make a last minute decision but instead, put into place the building blocks of opportunity and to take that opportunity when it arises (as it inevitably will).
I certainly can't expect to give your secrets away for free.As to ProCoach's suggestion about planning ahead - yes, 100% agreed. Which is another thing that is tough to coach. Learning to "throw away" one corner for purposes of setting up another...
What is this driver's perception? Does he feel out of his element? Does he feel "taken advantage of" or "abused" out there? Does he want to "turn up his aggression"?
I think you have to start by figuring out what his goals are - not necessarily what your (or the rest of the team's) goals are. If you did the "sink or swim" method, would he *not* have fun?
Fundamentally, you're comparing "technique" with "attitude" - one is certainly more "teachable" than the other. But that doesn't mean the other can't change... it just might need a different catalyst to start that change.
I think you have to start by figuring out what his goals are - not necessarily what your (or the rest of the team's) goals are. If you did the "sink or swim" method, would he *not* have fun?
Fundamentally, you're comparing "technique" with "attitude" - one is certainly more "teachable" than the other. But that doesn't mean the other can't change... it just might need a different catalyst to start that change.
When I think back to how *I* learned... it was mostly just experience. Trial and error. Take a chance, if it works, great, do it again. If not... oops, don't do that again. Make enough bad and good passes and eventually you start to be able to identify things.
Certainly no magic bullets but I'd say they've helped at least a little. Really it kinda smells like my original thoughts were probably the way to go - seat time and experience and just jumping in. (Well THAT or hiring a pro coach... which may also be an option...)
10-28-2013, 02:29 PM
#11
Nordschleife Master
If you think you've already narrowed down the prime factor to be a lack of aggression, then there are two topics that need to be addressed:
The root cause of the lack of aggression: Ask the driver why they think they may not be a aggressive as the other drivers on the team. They may be surprised by the question (are they even aware of the problem?) and you may be surprised by the answer. Then you can address their answer! Then set achievable goals for the driver. Success will breed confidence and more success!
The other topic is as Pete mentioned, the physics of race cars in action. Trajectories and Inertia. Can your DE guy drive off line? Has he practiced the undercut? Where is that other car gonna go if he loses grip or get bumped or whatever? I'm NOT advocating car contact in any way, but if you know what kind of contact is brutal vs the kind of contact that might work to your advantage, you are better prepared for whatever eventuality may come your way VS someone who has never experienced car contact, and may over react or under reacting at a critical juncture. This fear of the unknown may be a factor in the lack of aggression. This is truly hard to explain, IMO, as I learned it through racing games/sim and lots of karting. Maybe you can take him karting and see if he's more aggressive there.
The root cause of the lack of aggression: Ask the driver why they think they may not be a aggressive as the other drivers on the team. They may be surprised by the question (are they even aware of the problem?) and you may be surprised by the answer. Then you can address their answer! Then set achievable goals for the driver. Success will breed confidence and more success!
The other topic is as Pete mentioned, the physics of race cars in action. Trajectories and Inertia. Can your DE guy drive off line? Has he practiced the undercut? Where is that other car gonna go if he loses grip or get bumped or whatever? I'm NOT advocating car contact in any way, but if you know what kind of contact is brutal vs the kind of contact that might work to your advantage, you are better prepared for whatever eventuality may come your way VS someone who has never experienced car contact, and may over react or under reacting at a critical juncture. This fear of the unknown may be a factor in the lack of aggression. This is truly hard to explain, IMO, as I learned it through racing games/sim and lots of karting. Maybe you can take him karting and see if he's more aggressive there.
10-28-2013, 02:30 PM
#12
Race Car
put him in the car after the start.
and tell him to pick his passes and not to rush in a enduro. Even if he's passed more than he should be, he'll bring the car home. -let the others push harder.
Until you've rubbed doors and fenders, and traded a little paint, you don't realize you can do that get away with it. (then explain how to/how not to punt someone).
Can you run some scca sprints before the lemons race?
in a DE a car length is close. In racing its leaving the door open. he just has to get use to being inches off someone's bumper lap after lap...
+ watch some Spec miata races on yt and in person...
and tell him to pick his passes and not to rush in a enduro. Even if he's passed more than he should be, he'll bring the car home. -let the others push harder.
Until you've rubbed doors and fenders, and traded a little paint, you don't realize you can do that get away with it. (then explain how to/how not to punt someone).
Can you run some scca sprints before the lemons race?
in a DE a car length is close. In racing its leaving the door open. he just has to get use to being inches off someone's bumper lap after lap...
+ watch some Spec miata races on yt and in person...
10-28-2013, 02:52 PM
#13
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Simulator is another good one and I've put thought into that as well. I have a simulator in my basement that gets regular use in the winter months.... tough part is getting them over here with enough regularity to (a) get used to the simulator itself and THEN (b) start working on improving driving technique...
10-28-2013, 03:01 PM
#14
You don't need a pro coach to learn how to pass effectively.
You certainly could go over chapter 9 in "Going Faster!" with him so he understands the different types of passes and how to make them work. Once he understands that, he has a better chance of actually making those passes in a race. Then after he gets some experience passing, he has can start planning ahead which is the absolute key to passing quickly, safely, and to his best advantage.
Scott
10-28-2013, 03:02 PM
#15
Rennlist Member
Ok folks - question for the brain trust here.
I'm on a Lemons team with 5 other folks. All but one of us has real life racing experience... some of us, fairly extensive racing experience. One does not have ANY. Need advice on how to coach/teach some racecraft.
The non-racer in the group is very experienced at DE, is a *very* good DE driver, comfortably runs in the black group at PCA DE events, is an instructor in our region, etc. Just zero racing experience... and they seem to freeze up a bit, or (probably more accurately) get caught up in being overly-polite (like you do when in DE) when in heavy traffic. The rest of us on the team are all trying to help this person out... but it hasn't been easy, we're all kinda stumped at how to coach this stuff, as for each of us (myself included) it feels more instinctual than cerebral. We generally run GoPro cameras in the car and can watch this person run, and it's clear they're trying to take our advice (sneaking up inside folks, etc.) but not really applying it properly. Either waiting too long to make a move, or not seeing an opportunity, or not running defensive enough, leaving the door open and letting slower cars by, etc.
I think I'm a pretty good driving coach as far as getting someone around the track but when it comes to helping them ID a good time to pass, or when to abort, *ahead of time*, is tough. I can watch video all day long and point out "you should've passed there" or "you shouldn't have tried to pass there" but I have a tough time really narrowing the criteria down, etc. And even if I did, I don't want to overload this person with all this "thinking" and checklists or what-not about when it's OK or not OK to take a chance.
In other words... this person just needs to be more aggressive. How do you coach that? How do you coach "good" aggressive vs. "bad" aggressive to someone who isn't aggressive at all?
All that comes to mind for me is to just throw them off into the deep end of the pool and force them to learn by experience. But then this is also supposed to be fun, and we're all good friends, so sending them out there to be terrified, intimidated, or frustrated, for a 2.5 hour stint just doesn't sound like a whole lot of fun or a very nice thing to do, ya know?
I'm on a Lemons team with 5 other folks. All but one of us has real life racing experience... some of us, fairly extensive racing experience. One does not have ANY. Need advice on how to coach/teach some racecraft.
The non-racer in the group is very experienced at DE, is a *very* good DE driver, comfortably runs in the black group at PCA DE events, is an instructor in our region, etc. Just zero racing experience... and they seem to freeze up a bit, or (probably more accurately) get caught up in being overly-polite (like you do when in DE) when in heavy traffic. The rest of us on the team are all trying to help this person out... but it hasn't been easy, we're all kinda stumped at how to coach this stuff, as for each of us (myself included) it feels more instinctual than cerebral. We generally run GoPro cameras in the car and can watch this person run, and it's clear they're trying to take our advice (sneaking up inside folks, etc.) but not really applying it properly. Either waiting too long to make a move, or not seeing an opportunity, or not running defensive enough, leaving the door open and letting slower cars by, etc.
I think I'm a pretty good driving coach as far as getting someone around the track but when it comes to helping them ID a good time to pass, or when to abort, *ahead of time*, is tough. I can watch video all day long and point out "you should've passed there" or "you shouldn't have tried to pass there" but I have a tough time really narrowing the criteria down, etc. And even if I did, I don't want to overload this person with all this "thinking" and checklists or what-not about when it's OK or not OK to take a chance.
In other words... this person just needs to be more aggressive. How do you coach that? How do you coach "good" aggressive vs. "bad" aggressive to someone who isn't aggressive at all?
All that comes to mind for me is to just throw them off into the deep end of the pool and force them to learn by experience. But then this is also supposed to be fun, and we're all good friends, so sending them out there to be terrified, intimidated, or frustrated, for a 2.5 hour stint just doesn't sound like a whole lot of fun or a very nice thing to do, ya know?
it also takes TIME , not sure how aggressive you can be in your FIRST race or even would want to, lemons or not. no replacement for time and experience, both of which can be helped along with using Dave to coach initially and progress along without "hurrying" as all of us who do race remember
doubt I was very aggressive in my first race. on the other hand for your non-racing buddy, what a great way to start out
