paradocs98

I did a DE day at Lime Rock this week with SCDA (good group of guys), as well as an advanced car control clinic with them that same morning on the LRP skidpad and infield autocross circuit. A great time. I did the car control clinic with them last year in my 2011 M3, and I've done probably 12-15 DE days total at LRP over the last four years. I run in the advanced run group with SCDA, and white with Metro NY PCA, Schattenbaum PCA, and Reisentoter PCA (high intermediate). I have probably 45 track days total at this point.

This week was my second time at LRP with my 991S, and my first time doing the car control clinic with the 991S. I noticed some very obvious differences between my 991 and my former M3, and I'm looking for comments.

• My M3 was an absolute blast on the wet skidpad and autocross course. Fast, very controllable, very easy to kick the tail out but just as easy to catch it. The 991 understeered like a stubborn pig on the skidpad. I felt like I couldn't get it up to the speed I needed to induce oversteer without it starting to plow first. Maybe I needed to do it in 1st instead of 2nd (PDK), because the torque just wasn't there to overcome the inherently good traction of the rear-engine chassis.
• The autocross was a better experience in the 991 than the skidpad was. Less understeer, and the car was quick with transitions. Certainly not a drift king, but that's not what the car is really about.
• The tendency to understeer then vanishes on the main track. If anything, I feel like the car has a tendency towards oversteer. Is this the experience of others? Maybe it has to do with my tires, or tire pressures. I'm running Yokohama AD08Rs, which are an extreme-performance street tire (not an R-comp). The grip seems decent, and they don't get greasy with extended sessions, but they are VERY sensitive to pressures. When I came off the autocross and skidpad, I lowered my pressures to get them into the correct range for the main track, but after my first session I found they were still a few psi too high. Ideal seems to be 36-37 front and 38-39 rear HOT. It was like ice skating that first track session. Things certainly improved with subsequent sessions as I got the pressures to an ideal spot, but the car still felt a bit tail-happy. Not necessarily under power, but in cornering and transitions. It was a bit disconcerting. So my question is this--does this just mean that I'm finally getting fast enough that I'm walking on the edge and getting that ideal 6-7 degrees of tire slip? Is this what things are supposed to feel like when you're driving right where you need to be? Or should it feel more planted/controlled at all times during cornering? My rears were worn a moderate amount after several track days and the car control clinic, so maybe that's a factor. Maybe I need to look into an R-comp setup for this car. But I'm asking those of you with a lot of experience whether it's expected and desirable to frequently be feeling a certain degree of slip.

I'm down to the low 1:03s at LRP, and my goal is to eventually break into the :59s. Any comments/suggestions welcome. I've attached clips of the autocross course, and a couple of my laps on the main track.

Thanks in advance.

MUSSBERGER

Are you running factory alignment?

RickBetterley

Hard to tell without riding along, but a 911 with the tail a bit out sounds normal to me.
1:03 is darned good for your experience and equipment.

noturavgm

Ahhhh LRP. Home track such as it is. Grew up 40 min away. Love the place.

What corners are you getting oversteer? Rotation or do you need to catch it with oppo? Entry? On power?

LRP doesn't really breed oversteer in most corners.

I'm going to say alignment, pressures, or maybe just need a tweak in driving style coming from the Bimmer?

1:03s should not be at the limit for 08Rs and a 991 I would wager.

ricster

You should easily break a minute given the right pressures and alignment but also the skill needed to get those numbers. I find many lose the seconds coming into the downhill, the uphill and the way the left hander is tackled. Slow in fast out.

Steve113

Good job over all a few things that will help you make time .Tires will help big time but there are some things you can polish up

Throttle longer in front straight brake later and harder
turning in too early for big bend
Get closer into apex on the right hander
Straighter shot through No Name throttle much longer to the uphill turn in
Power up the hill, lift if needed at crest then full power
Down hill try and apply power sooner and harder on exit (take baby steps here it can bite)

Lime Rock is supper technical it rewards precision. Over all do less coasting and later braking, get into power earlier and don't turn in early

P.S. Its very rare that I get beat at Lime Rock 

ricster

Looking at the video I can see that you can be much faster coming into the downhill because you are around 85mph at the apex and last time i was there (a month ago) in a miata I was at 91 at that point so you can carry more speed there, also you need to be tighter into big bend and stay to the left of the track before turn in. The uphill you are in the middle you should really be positioned to the left edge of the track at the uphill. Just from the bit I see you can improve your time by tightening things up there.

paradocs98

Wow--you guys are awesome. Multiple good responses in less than a day!


Yes. With PDCC, the car sits pretty flat in cornering, and I'm finding very even wear across the tread surfaces.

As long as that tail-out doesn't bite me. Love your car, by the way. Wish SST was closer to me (it's about an hour away).

Love LRP, too. It was my first on-track experience several years ago. It's almost 2 hours away, but it's still my "home" track.

I was getting a bit of oversteer in T1-2 on entry/midcorner. Not provoked by power. Definitely some tail-out in the Left-hander, but that's to be expected. Then in West Bend and the Downhill's turn onto the front straight, it felt like a slight four-wheel drift. Again, maybe that's to be expected, but it felt a bit uncomfortable, like being on edge, being on your tippy-toes. Never really had that sensation in the M3, which I brought down into the low 1:03s on Toyo RR R-comps.

Good to know that it's a doable goal.

Thanks for the details. I feel like I've done different approaches to the track over time. With the M3, I was really staying on power as much as possible and braking very very late, but coming into T1 it would get a bit dicey--the brake bias or balance of the car or LSD or alignment or something would really raise the rear up under hard braking, and make it wiggle, even when braking in a straight line. I also used to stay out wide to driver's left on the turn-in to T1 and do a big arc through the complex, but then a couple people suggested that I start the turn-in to T1 much sooner, sweeping across the track and coming up on the apex curbing, kind of "throwing" the car into Big Bend and then allowing it to sort itself out. Thoughts?
On the Right Hander, I should get tighter into the apex curbing, without clipping it because it's high, correct? I studied Simon Kirkby's LRP Driver's Club video where he talked the class through a lap. He suggested taking No-Name Straight down the middle, putting the left front tire on that dark asphalt patch in the middle of the track after coming out of the Right-Hander, and not flowing down into that depression on driver's right where the curbing is. He said that depression just creates a hole that you have to climb out of.
Are you trailing the brake into the Uphill, or getting all of it done prior to the turn-in?
Am I able to apply power harder and sooner on exit of the Downhill because the track has positive camber at the apex?

Good. So do you mean 85mph at the apex of West Bend, coming into the Downhill, or at the actual apex of the last turn coming onto the front straight? I will say that I'm on track with Miatas frequently at LRP, and I certainly can't do what they do. Miatas probably brake only at Big Bend, and nowhere else. I see the speed they carry through turns and it stupefies me. I'm sure it's frustrating for Miata drivers, because they need to point me by on the front straight, and then I'm in their way all through Big Bend, the Left Hander and the Right Hander until I can power away again on No-Name Straight.
Can you explain Big Bend some more? Do you mean stay at driver's left longer prior to entering T1, late apexing, and then staying tight along the entire inside curbing through T1-2?
For the Uphill, do you apex earlier on the approach so that it shoots you over to the left-hand edge for entry to the hill?

Steve113

1st listen to everything Simon says. I know him well, he knows me and he certainly knows his stuff

2nd take driving suggestions with a grain of salt from boards. There are very few drivers that really know how to master a track . I don't say that to be arrogant but like in any sport you have ok players then coaches and then you have "The Guru Coach's and lap record holders" Simon at Lime Rock would be one of the Guru coaches

Wiggle under braking in braking zone for P1 is very typical of a lot of cars. Big bend is tough to master but to do it right you have to double apex it. There is no other way if you want to "Master it". The key is to be fast at the entrance get the car slowed down in the transition where you make your second turn in for the second apex and to be able to be back on full power before track out (Be careful an early second apex leads to dropping wheels on exit and crashing to the inside)

What most people don’t get is the Right Hander is the second most important turn on the track. Leads to second longest straight. I like getting into that apex so I feel the curbing on my inside front tire. You don’t have to be on the curbing but you should be feeling it

No Name Straight take a straight shot through it . Do not follow the track . It’s a straight shot with almost no steering wheel movement. More you steer the slower you are.

Every second that you improve at Lime Rock is like 2.5 seconds compared to the Glen. Every second is big. Once you master the car every second from there becomes an eternity.

hf1

Very smooth driving. Almost too smooth. Few comments:

- As Steve said, you're turning in way too early (creeping in) for turn 1. This makes you go out after the apex and away from the curb and slow down too much, then you have to get on the gas between T1 and T2 in the middle of big bend. If you turn in later for T1, you can brake much deeper into the turn (at the curb), maintain throttle as you hug 3/4 length of the curb then let the car out a bit, breathe for some extra front grip for T2 and get on throttle before the apex of T2.

- Overall you need to get on throttle sooner almost everywhere.

- You can go faster (and turn in earlier) into the uphill and complete a lot of the turn as you hit the compression 1/2-3/4 up the hill. There's much more grip there than most people expect.

- Faster hands at turn-in overall (goes with later apex) but especially at West Bend and the Downhill. Just like with the Uphill, there is a lot of grip as you hit the compression at the bottom of the Downhill. There's a darker spot/area to the left from all the tires hitting the compression. Quicker hands can use the extra grip to complete a lot of the turn there, leaving you at a much better angle for early throttle onto the main straight. Just this part is worth 1-2sec.

noturavgm

Great advice in here (especially about listening to Simon )

Like everyone has mentioned, brake much later and turn in much later to 1. Under the bridge I am probably 1/2 track to 2/3 right on the track but pointed much farther around the corner. Hug that T1 curbing for a while then release.

Turn the car enough into 2 with a lift/more steering that you can be on the power hard.

Left hander I like a lower line than the school line... probably mid track.

Brush the right hander curb, but not TOO hard or that flag station at track out will look pretty big pretty fast.

I like an earlier turn in to the uphill and track out way left, sometimes need a little flick of oppo. It probably isn't as scary in my M3 however because even matted before the apex I only get a little wheelspin if any.

West bend is what it is, just figure out what works. Also, the inner curbing isn't quite geometric from what I recall. The apex is actually farther around the corner than you think (and than it looks).

Downhill, be, on, the, power. There is no worse feeling than sort of floating through the downhill without the chassis loaded. As has been mentioned, work toward introducing power earlier.


However if you are getting mid corner oversteer and feeling like the car is skating all over the place at 1:03s, I am standing by my thought that something is off with alignment or pressures. I am in the high 1:03s in my E36 M3 on Direzzas (hoping to better that on the 24th now that I have seats/harnesses), and I have to do something stupid to make the car feel THAT upset.

RickBetterley

Thanks about my car. I really like it and am sad to see my season coming to a close. SST is 2.5 hours from my house. Wish it was closer but is WELL worth the travel. Have not had this car at Lime Rock; I need to get on that next year.

Sean F

If I were in your right seat, I would be yelling throttle all over the place. Commit to the throttle and your 911 will love you. Drive the fronts in and the rears out.

rockitman

I'll say...been sub 1 minute in a GT1 class 944 turbo as a rider...57 sec laps....quite a violent ride I might add.

paradocs98

Great stuff, everyone. Can you guys please post video clips of some of your laps? I'm a visual learner.