Speed limits for trackdays?
08-22-2015, 07:40 AM
#31
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I attended an event just last year at Putnam Park organized by a small outfit that only allows advanced solo drivers and during the drivers meeting they announced that some Road and Track folks were attending and would be driving a few press cars throughout the day. By far, the most dangerous part of the day was the R&T writers being so slow in the corners you had to check up to not rear end them! Jack was the exception, he's a talented shoe and seems like a good guy.
08-22-2015, 10:15 AM
#32
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After reading I got the impression that Jack was saying let’s try to do something to improve safety before someone, like the subject of his interview, Don Salisbury makes the decision for you. The recent fatality and Ross Bentley’s speed limit sermon have launched a foray on track day pleasures. Personally, I’ve only ever participated in PCA events with an emphasis on teaching and strict rules designed to mitigate accidents. This is done under the stipulation of insurance coverage designed to keep costs affordable whose rules change every time they get sued.
I’m not sure what PCA can further impose to increase safety and still make track time accessible to all, other than not run at certain facilities.
Track days are inherently risky - you are bound to crash at some point. Perhaps this Salisbury guy should champion a special cruiser class where only he and his closest confidants are allowed to pass? That and a pair of safety glasses would keep him happy.
I’m not sure what PCA can further impose to increase safety and still make track time accessible to all, other than not run at certain facilities.
Track days are inherently risky - you are bound to crash at some point. Perhaps this Salisbury guy should champion a special cruiser class where only he and his closest confidants are allowed to pass? That and a pair of safety glasses would keep him happy.
08-22-2015, 12:43 PM
#33
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It's possible I misunderstand the issues here, but I don't think anyone is saying there shouldn't be passing at DE's.
I think the point that Ross and Don are trying to make is that there are cars that have insane limits and Saturn 5 top speed limits that can be bought used for $50k or less. Their worry is that these cars are bringing brought to the track by complete novice drivers that have Zero experience handling such a machine and there are no additional safety requirements for these cars.
I've been an instructor for over ten years. I've never had a serious off track incident with a student. I think I do a pretty good job managing the student and their car but we have little to no control over the student/situation from the right seat. We're not making the control inputs. The vast majority of my students have been humble, willing to learn and very cautious while out on track.
That said, I do feel a little trepidation when I'm first getting into a 500+ hp car with someone I don't know with stock safety equipment. Regardless of how nice a person they are and how controlled a driver they are, things go sideways much faster in a "super" car vs something with 100hp...
I think the point that Ross and Don are trying to make is that there are cars that have insane limits and Saturn 5 top speed limits that can be bought used for $50k or less. Their worry is that these cars are bringing brought to the track by complete novice drivers that have Zero experience handling such a machine and there are no additional safety requirements for these cars.
I've been an instructor for over ten years. I've never had a serious off track incident with a student. I think I do a pretty good job managing the student and their car but we have little to no control over the student/situation from the right seat. We're not making the control inputs. The vast majority of my students have been humble, willing to learn and very cautious while out on track.
That said, I do feel a little trepidation when I'm first getting into a 500+ hp car with someone I don't know with stock safety equipment. Regardless of how nice a person they are and how controlled a driver they are, things go sideways much faster in a "super" car vs something with 100hp...
08-23-2015, 02:05 AM
#35
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A dip**** driver will always be a dip**** driver.
15, 20, 25 DE days don't change that.
Speed limits don't change the dingbats.
Ross and others aren't saying that will change. What they are saying is that the new cars are scary. Hopefully other people will realize that the level of scary the new cars have will change how people drive. If that doesn't happen, the ship sailed when Porsche surpassed 200hp in the 911......
15, 20, 25 DE days don't change that.
Speed limits don't change the dingbats.
Ross and others aren't saying that will change. What they are saying is that the new cars are scary. Hopefully other people will realize that the level of scary the new cars have will change how people drive. If that doesn't happen, the ship sailed when Porsche surpassed 200hp in the 911......
08-23-2015, 09:22 PM
#37
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I started teaching DE's with Don Salisbury over twenty-six years ago. He drove a Rabbit, very fast... 'nuf said.
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08-23-2015, 09:23 PM
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08-23-2015, 09:25 PM
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"It just depends on what model of organization you want. Do you want blind obedience or informed acquiescence or self-governance? If you have self-governance, I think the individuals have more invested in what's going on because they have a say, and they have a stake in it." Chip Kelly, Phila. Eagles.
To me, potential problems are headed off by a strong CI that actually works the event, watches and listens, and acts when necessary, coupled with an Instructor core that knows the CI has its back entirely. Any outliers are quickly reined in or are out. Starts at the top and at the first drivers meeting. Lay the rules, follow thru. Simple.
Maybe my experiences are the outlier but most at a HPDE event are willing learners, want to be safe, and are there for fun.
If that is true generally, why would anyone want to add artificial rules for the majority that do not require them? Our 'customers', if you want to use that term, are the ones that follow the rules, not the ones that have paid... Unless of course the argument really is (as it actually is ) that we cannot self-govern; ie, do not lay down the rules and/or enforce the same..
An old saying comes to mind: 'Bad facts make bad law'
To me, potential problems are headed off by a strong CI that actually works the event, watches and listens, and acts when necessary, coupled with an Instructor core that knows the CI has its back entirely. Any outliers are quickly reined in or are out. Starts at the top and at the first drivers meeting. Lay the rules, follow thru. Simple.
Maybe my experiences are the outlier but most at a HPDE event are willing learners, want to be safe, and are there for fun.
If that is true generally, why would anyone want to add artificial rules for the majority that do not require them? Our 'customers', if you want to use that term, are the ones that follow the rules, not the ones that have paid... Unless of course the argument really is (as it actually is ) that we cannot self-govern; ie, do not lay down the rules and/or enforce the same..
An old saying comes to mind: 'Bad facts make bad law'
Excellent post.
08-23-2015, 09:46 PM
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08-23-2015, 10:01 PM
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Hahaha! I know you have had a hard-on for Jack for awhile. No problem.
I posted on another board where someone had posited that in-car lap timing was one of the causes of increased incident rates, a statement with which I disagree with, in spades...
"Many current performance cars include onboard timing displays, Porsche Sport Chrono, BMW, Ferrari, the new Corvette PDR. The "prohibition" against timing cars at DE's was a rider by the insurance companies offering event liability coverage to prevent public comparisons (posted) times, NOT individual times internal to the car. A sensible driver and a strong CI are not influenced adversely nor do they become reckless because of these apps and in-car information.
I started teaching DE's with Don Salisbury in 1989, after participating in unsupervised track days for nearly a decade before that and being paid by Track Time, Inc. to ride with folks as early as 1987.
I was driving Ferraris, at that time SUPERCARS, with performance way beyond the typical cars that showed up at DE's at that time. An interesting thing happened when the 944 Turbo came out, and MUCH MORE SO when the E36 M3 came out. Even with experienced DE drivers, there were spikes in DE incident rates with those cars, because they were SO much quicker than the cars that had come before, and this was two DECADES ago.
I appreciate Don's insight, but I see no compelling case for legislating common sense and personal responsibility. If the "rules were enforced," the BEST focus would be on individual participants who demonstrate a pattern of misbehavior and SENDING THEM HOME immediately. That would do far more good, IMO.
The fatality at Road Atlanta was due to fluid down from an expired car in front of the incident car and the fact that there was nothing, NO protection, in front of a hard, high concrete wall... It's not the speed that kills you, it's the sudden stop..."
I posted on another board where someone had posited that in-car lap timing was one of the causes of increased incident rates, a statement with which I disagree with, in spades...
"Many current performance cars include onboard timing displays, Porsche Sport Chrono, BMW, Ferrari, the new Corvette PDR. The "prohibition" against timing cars at DE's was a rider by the insurance companies offering event liability coverage to prevent public comparisons (posted) times, NOT individual times internal to the car. A sensible driver and a strong CI are not influenced adversely nor do they become reckless because of these apps and in-car information.
I started teaching DE's with Don Salisbury in 1989, after participating in unsupervised track days for nearly a decade before that and being paid by Track Time, Inc. to ride with folks as early as 1987.
I was driving Ferraris, at that time SUPERCARS, with performance way beyond the typical cars that showed up at DE's at that time. An interesting thing happened when the 944 Turbo came out, and MUCH MORE SO when the E36 M3 came out. Even with experienced DE drivers, there were spikes in DE incident rates with those cars, because they were SO much quicker than the cars that had come before, and this was two DECADES ago.
I appreciate Don's insight, but I see no compelling case for legislating common sense and personal responsibility. If the "rules were enforced," the BEST focus would be on individual participants who demonstrate a pattern of misbehavior and SENDING THEM HOME immediately. That would do far more good, IMO.
The fatality at Road Atlanta was due to fluid down from an expired car in front of the incident car and the fact that there was nothing, NO protection, in front of a hard, high concrete wall... It's not the speed that kills you, it's the sudden stop..."
08-23-2015, 10:01 PM
#42
08-23-2015, 10:12 PM
#43
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08-23-2015, 11:19 PM
#44
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Speed limits for trackdays?
We could eliminate the risk by banning HPDEs altogether.
If it saves one life...
Then we can ban racing - after all, look at what happened at the Pocono race today.
If it saves one life...
If it saves one life...
Then we can ban racing - after all, look at what happened at the Pocono race today.
If it saves one life...
