Speed limits for trackdays?
08-24-2015, 02:20 PM
#46
Rennlist Member
As much as I hate to be negative to ideas designed to protect me as an instructor and driver, one size fits all speed limits rankle me. I work in an industry rife with "consumer protecting" rules. They don't do squat. And I realize that speed limits are supported by some of the country's most experienced coaches--though my couple hundred days instructing students in cars and classroom does give me some prospective.
It's my job as an instructor to limit speed. I do this EVERY time I get in a passenger seat. It's also my job in the driver's seat to drive within my abilities.
If we limit speed to 90 mph or whatever, our students will not really learn to threshold brake or experience entering a turn from speed. That's supposed to be good?
Students will be solo'd without ever driving at racetrack speed. That's supposed to be good?
Many, probably most, DE incidents happen at the track out side of the apex. How does a speed limit help that?
BTW, for the region that recently imposed speed limits on uncaged cars in the advanced group, were they driving at 90mph on the same track as unlimited cars? Might there be some issues?
And let's face it, if we don't drive much faster at the track than on the highway, why not just auto-x?
I, probably more than most, hate being in novices' cars that can drive faster on their first day than my car will ever drive. Invariably, we slow down because I insist on focusing on skills, smoothness and consistency, which can't be learned "flat out". That's MY role in the car.
Regarding the statement that PCA has dumbed down it's standards, I don't see that in the northeast. When I do classrooms for PCA, I'm generally doing 6 classes for novices and a couple for intermediate and advanced each event. The drivers in the extended passing group generally have scores or hundreds of days' experience and usually competition experiences. Solo's and promotions are taken seriously and not automatic. Many regions, though hardly all, schedule track walks. Heck, some zone 1 regions are downright draconian. Maybe that's not how it is elsewhere? I certainly know that a number of private groups, or even the SCCA, aren't nearly as strict as we are in zone 1.
I don't know the solution other than instructor and driver responsibility. I rarely drive my own car, fully caged, 10/10. And no, that's not a complete solution and won't always protect drivers from fluids or mechanical's, for example. I;m just not keen on one size fits all solutions, and I ALWAYS worry about unintended consequences of new rules.
It's my job as an instructor to limit speed. I do this EVERY time I get in a passenger seat. It's also my job in the driver's seat to drive within my abilities.
If we limit speed to 90 mph or whatever, our students will not really learn to threshold brake or experience entering a turn from speed. That's supposed to be good?
Students will be solo'd without ever driving at racetrack speed. That's supposed to be good?
Many, probably most, DE incidents happen at the track out side of the apex. How does a speed limit help that?
BTW, for the region that recently imposed speed limits on uncaged cars in the advanced group, were they driving at 90mph on the same track as unlimited cars? Might there be some issues?
And let's face it, if we don't drive much faster at the track than on the highway, why not just auto-x?
I, probably more than most, hate being in novices' cars that can drive faster on their first day than my car will ever drive. Invariably, we slow down because I insist on focusing on skills, smoothness and consistency, which can't be learned "flat out". That's MY role in the car.
Regarding the statement that PCA has dumbed down it's standards, I don't see that in the northeast. When I do classrooms for PCA, I'm generally doing 6 classes for novices and a couple for intermediate and advanced each event. The drivers in the extended passing group generally have scores or hundreds of days' experience and usually competition experiences. Solo's and promotions are taken seriously and not automatic. Many regions, though hardly all, schedule track walks. Heck, some zone 1 regions are downright draconian. Maybe that's not how it is elsewhere? I certainly know that a number of private groups, or even the SCCA, aren't nearly as strict as we are in zone 1.
I don't know the solution other than instructor and driver responsibility. I rarely drive my own car, fully caged, 10/10. And no, that's not a complete solution and won't always protect drivers from fluids or mechanical's, for example. I;m just not keen on one size fits all solutions, and I ALWAYS worry about unintended consequences of new rules.
"Safe, Serious, Fun" in that order with clear and enforced rules along with the Instructor being the speed limiter (yes, it's now harder) is standard for PCA.
At NNJR-PCA we now do more classrooms (and not just for Novice students) at every event and we also do more track walks. Why? This is Driver Education, the drivers have been asking for more, other PCA Regions have raised the bar and it really does connect to the Safe, Serious, Fun mantra and culture.
BTW (Mr. R&T guy), extended passing basically means pass anywhere with a signal. The "extended part" generally is what happens at corners and it also means you only own 1/2 the track if you both happen to be in the corner at the same time. More often than not, one driver gives it up for the other guy, meaning, no contested corners in PCA DE and this is not the fast part of the lap anyway.
Tom Iervolino
NNJR-PCA Track Chair
08-24-2015, 02:37 PM
#47
"Safe, Serious, Fun" in that order with clear and enforced rules along with the Instructor being the speed limiter (yes, it's now harder) is standard for PCA.
At NNJR-PCA we now do more classrooms (and not just for Novice students) at every event and we also do more track walks. Why? This is Driver Education, the drivers have been asking for more, other PCA Regions have raised the bar and it really does connect to the Safe, Serious, Fun mantra and culture.
Tom Iervolino
NNJR-PCA Track Chair
At NNJR-PCA we now do more classrooms (and not just for Novice students) at every event and we also do more track walks. Why? This is Driver Education, the drivers have been asking for more, other PCA Regions have raised the bar and it really does connect to the Safe, Serious, Fun mantra and culture.
Tom Iervolino
NNJR-PCA Track Chair
-Mike
08-24-2015, 02:59 PM
#48
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And I realize that speed limits are supported by some of the country's most experienced coaches
It's my job as an instructor to limit speed. I do this EVERY time I get in a passenger seat. It's also my job in the driver's seat to drive within my abilities.
Students will be solo'd without ever driving at racetrack speed. That's supposed to be good?
Many, probably most, DE incidents happen at the track out side of the apex. How does a speed limit help that?
Invariably, we slow down because I insist on focusing on skills, smoothness and consistency, which can't be learned "flat out". That's MY role in the car.
I don't know the solution other than instructor and driver responsibility.
It's my job as an instructor to limit speed. I do this EVERY time I get in a passenger seat. It's also my job in the driver's seat to drive within my abilities.
Students will be solo'd without ever driving at racetrack speed. That's supposed to be good?
Many, probably most, DE incidents happen at the track out side of the apex. How does a speed limit help that?
Invariably, we slow down because I insist on focusing on skills, smoothness and consistency, which can't be learned "flat out". That's MY role in the car.
I don't know the solution other than instructor and driver responsibility.
I completely disagree with the imposition of speed limits on track, except PERHAPS for rank novices until AFTER they demonstrate competence with car control exercises, participate in a track walk and receive (and are tested) after GOOD classroom instruction.
Heck, I don't care for the prohibitions against R-Comp tires for lower run groups...
I like where you're going with this post... PERSONAL responsibility. Better, quicker and swifter application of discipline after CLEAR performance and behavior expectations have been outlined.
I still think there is far more risk driving to and from track events than during the track events themselves.
The data kept by good friends of mine who OPERATE these events (as well as my personal experience) indicates that more and more track-miles per participant are being logged with less than parallel increase in incidents. That is the bottom line...
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Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
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-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
08-24-2015, 03:02 PM
#49
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At NNJR-PCA we now do more classrooms (and not just for Novice students) at every event and we also do more track walks. Why? This is Driver Education, the drivers have been asking for more, other PCA Regions have raised the bar and it really does connect to the Safe, Serious, Fun mantra and culture.
Tom Iervolino
NNJR-PCA Track Chair
Tom Iervolino
NNJR-PCA Track Chair
08-24-2015, 03:39 PM
#50
Rennlist Member
Maybe I missed the point. I thought the point was to reduce fatalities, not necessarily incidents.
I thought the impetus of the discussion was the speeds relative to the safety systems in play.
KineticEnergy = .5 * Mass * V^2
What we are talking about is an exponential increase in the amount of energy in these incidents compared to years past. The safety systems in today’s cars are certainly light-years ahead of those in years past, but can they protect the driver in a very high speed crash?
And the question that has not been asked: How much protection does just a roll bar offer? how bout just a cage?
As far as instructors have control over speeds…. BS … If I were to tell all my students to "slow down.. let everyone else pass because I didn’t feel the safety standards of cars had kept up with the speeds, blah, blah, blah".... I would not be asked to instruct again… It has to come from the top down.
Its not about a drivers competence, sh*t happens to everyone… It’s about the ability for the safety system in the car and at the track to cope with the energy. Again, I think most tracks don’t need a speed limit, most are inherently slow enough… It's just the “big” old ones that need a few MPH knocked off the top end until they can revisit their safety measures.
I thought the impetus of the discussion was the speeds relative to the safety systems in play.
KineticEnergy = .5 * Mass * V^2
What we are talking about is an exponential increase in the amount of energy in these incidents compared to years past. The safety systems in today’s cars are certainly light-years ahead of those in years past, but can they protect the driver in a very high speed crash?
And the question that has not been asked: How much protection does just a roll bar offer? how bout just a cage?
As far as instructors have control over speeds…. BS … If I were to tell all my students to "slow down.. let everyone else pass because I didn’t feel the safety standards of cars had kept up with the speeds, blah, blah, blah".... I would not be asked to instruct again… It has to come from the top down.
Its not about a drivers competence, sh*t happens to everyone… It’s about the ability for the safety system in the car and at the track to cope with the energy. Again, I think most tracks don’t need a speed limit, most are inherently slow enough… It's just the “big” old ones that need a few MPH knocked off the top end until they can revisit their safety measures.
Last edited by jscott82; 08-25-2015 at 11:30 AM.
08-24-2015, 04:17 PM
#51
Race Car
Interesting points. Open passing (with a signal) was not approved to up the attendance and it is not something new. NASA has been allowing it in HPDE4 (instructor group) since I started instructing with NASA MA in 2002. When I did my first PCA DE in October 1997, passing was allowed in corners with a signal. I know this because I took a ride with an instructor at the end of the day, after my last green group session. Open passing was shelved at some point between my first event, and when I started instructing (and racing) in 2000. I attended the DE committee meetings in subsequent years where bringing back anywhere with a a signal passing so this was discussed thoroughly before re-introducing it in black and red group. Was done because instructors driving in those run groups wanted it. We were shot down many times before it was finally allowed again.
08-24-2015, 04:25 PM
#52
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As far as instructors have control over speeds…. BS … If I were to tell all my students to "slow down.. let everyone else pass because I didn’t feel the safety standards of cars had kept up with the speeds, blah, blah, blah".... I would not be asked to instruct again… It has to come from the top down.
Its not about a drivers competence, sh*t happens to everyone… It’s about the ability for the safety system in the car and at the track to cope with the energy. Again, I think most tracks don’t need a speed limit, most are inherently slow enough… It's just the “big” old ones that need a few MPH knocked off the top end until they can revisit their safety measures.
Its not about a drivers competence, sh*t happens to everyone… It’s about the ability for the safety system in the car and at the track to cope with the energy. Again, I think most tracks don’t need a speed limit, most are inherently slow enough… It's just the “big” old ones that need a few MPH knocked off the top end until they can revisit their safety measures.
As to the latter, I think you have a good point. Other than the most recent Road Atlanta fatality, most accidents are within the 40-80 mph speeds and around the corner exit geometry.
08-30-2015, 11:44 AM
#54
Rennlist Member
I think the speed limit should be set at 132 mph since this is about the top speed of both of my track cars. That seems reasonable to me.
08-30-2015, 11:46 AM
#55
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Same here! Hahahaha!
08-30-2015, 07:09 PM
#57
Burning Brakes
If you are wanting to pass an SM down the straights you are going too fast. If the SM is holding you up in the corners, the driver needs to let you by, speed restriction no longer applies to you.
09-10-2015, 05:27 PM
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HPDE safety
Ouch..... but OK , we're talking about using will power as our safety plan in HPDE . A hobby I would like to see continue. A few years ago I agreed to gather incident reports sent to me by individuals ; examine the data and forward to all a report from an equipment and track response perspective. Understand I am not an expert, but have been around this for a number of years. I investigate as best I can, and send a summary out to a group, what was really going on: the seat belt failure where the instructors helmet hit the windshield, twice./ or the Cayman tank rupture/ 6 minute club race EV response/ and on... (no one shares incident reports, even with the regional safety chairs)
This group has HPDE history dating back to its formation, two in the group go back to the late 50s. Charter members in BMW CCA, PCA & SCCA regions and clubs, volunteers that have held most of the offices and worked all the positions at HPDEs and club races, medical doctors, race prep shop owners, track employees, SCCA F&C marshals, safety system support, National and Regional club chairs, a past National President and International Council Vice-Chairman.
We just want to start the conversation before someone with little interest in HPDE forces it. I do have too much old SCCA / IMSA / NASCAR in me, would not trade a day of it. Peter Krause and I did have some great times in the late 80s/90s, one of the most fun rides I had was with him in a M3 a the rock.
Controlling top speeds in motorsports isn't a new concept... done by every organizing at some level: classing, weight, tires, wings, displacement.
For the record 90/ 100mph numbers used in the article is what I capped student at, the group does not have top speed recommendations. They feel there is a lot to consider. The question is should there be one? Here is what the group would like PCA & BMW CCA to review. We think there needs to be National guidelines on cars with factory stock safety equipment. Passengers/ After the adrenaline wears off most that instruct ,on the longest straight have thoughts like...."is this a good idea to be in a 3 point belt in car at 153mph with a 3rd event student? " Most seasoned and professional instructors question that there is any value setting in that car at that speed, and when you weight it against the known danger of catastrophic outcomes at those speeds, why?
Locked corners, 3 to 4 minutes for EV or worker help many of the tracks on the east coast. Does not have to be that way. Do you know when it happened and why? So all this leads up to 3 subjects we have asked the clubs to address at a National level.
three topic that need to be addressed
1. open speeds in cars with factory stock safety equipment
2. open speeds in cars with passengers
3. locked corners, incident response times, incident reporting.
Don Salisbury
This group has HPDE history dating back to its formation, two in the group go back to the late 50s. Charter members in BMW CCA, PCA & SCCA regions and clubs, volunteers that have held most of the offices and worked all the positions at HPDEs and club races, medical doctors, race prep shop owners, track employees, SCCA F&C marshals, safety system support, National and Regional club chairs, a past National President and International Council Vice-Chairman.
We just want to start the conversation before someone with little interest in HPDE forces it. I do have too much old SCCA / IMSA / NASCAR in me, would not trade a day of it. Peter Krause and I did have some great times in the late 80s/90s, one of the most fun rides I had was with him in a M3 a the rock.
Controlling top speeds in motorsports isn't a new concept... done by every organizing at some level: classing, weight, tires, wings, displacement.
For the record 90/ 100mph numbers used in the article is what I capped student at, the group does not have top speed recommendations. They feel there is a lot to consider. The question is should there be one? Here is what the group would like PCA & BMW CCA to review. We think there needs to be National guidelines on cars with factory stock safety equipment. Passengers/ After the adrenaline wears off most that instruct ,on the longest straight have thoughts like...."is this a good idea to be in a 3 point belt in car at 153mph with a 3rd event student? " Most seasoned and professional instructors question that there is any value setting in that car at that speed, and when you weight it against the known danger of catastrophic outcomes at those speeds, why?
Locked corners, 3 to 4 minutes for EV or worker help many of the tracks on the east coast. Does not have to be that way. Do you know when it happened and why? So all this leads up to 3 subjects we have asked the clubs to address at a National level.
three topic that need to be addressed
1. open speeds in cars with factory stock safety equipment
2. open speeds in cars with passengers
3. locked corners, incident response times, incident reporting.
Don Salisbury
Last edited by salisbury; 09-10-2015 at 06:26 PM. Reason: word choice
09-10-2015, 07:21 PM
#59
?...
I completely disagree with the imposition of speed limits on track, except PERHAPS for rank novices until AFTER they demonstrate competence with car control exercises, participate in a track walk and receive (and are tested) after GOOD classroom instruction.
I like where you're going with this post... PERSONAL responsibility. Better, quicker and swifter application of discipline after CLEAR performance and behavior expectations have been outlined. ...
I completely disagree with the imposition of speed limits on track, except PERHAPS for rank novices until AFTER they demonstrate competence with car control exercises, participate in a track walk and receive (and are tested) after GOOD classroom instruction.
I like where you're going with this post... PERSONAL responsibility. Better, quicker and swifter application of discipline after CLEAR performance and behavior expectations have been outlined. ...
It's interesting to hear the comments by some track chairs about track walks etc. In running tracks from Georgia to Ohio to New York I never had the opportunity to do a track walk as a student. Only after I became an instructor and had an opportunity for a walk after (or before) track activities did I actually go on one.
So maybe we're not as far apart as some seem...
09-10-2015, 07:31 PM
#60
Burning Brakes
So if you want them to learn threshold etc...have a speed limit for most of the straight then a set of cones to mark and acceleration zone where they accelerate towards the braking zone....keeps the speed in consistent which is more conducive to teaching. .....and as long as there isn't a prius driving student the left lane passes will be easy
In all seriousness I see the point but I think limiting the straight aways to gears serves the same purpose....900hp vette still cant go any faster than the gear let's the engine Rev
Done this for a few students ...non 3rd gear till you can run 5 consistent laps etc
My wife told me no more instructing when the kids came along......I miss it and sneak in every so often but the speeds the cars are capable....think first gen boxster vs base 991......it's amazing
In all seriousness I see the point but I think limiting the straight aways to gears serves the same purpose....900hp vette still cant go any faster than the gear let's the engine Rev
Done this for a few students ...non 3rd gear till you can run 5 consistent laps etc
My wife told me no more instructing when the kids came along......I miss it and sneak in every so often but the speeds the cars are capable....think first gen boxster vs base 991......it's amazing