Livio928

The sad reality is that a small percentage of small business owners actually make over $100k (if they are lucky) or close to the $80k threshold. Taking time off means not making any money. They don't get vacation pay. They don't get sick days. They can't afford to close their businesses when they feel. When was the last time you went to a convenience store and it was closed with a sign that said "on Vacation". I am sure not very often. This and the fact that the majority have all of their life savings rolled up into the business which can easily be lost through no fault of their own - economy tanking, a client not paying due to bankruptcy, stiffing them, or any other reason for that matter.

I am in the similar situation as yourself, (thank God), where my wife works in a position that has benefits. I understand your point, that the unions are to blame, and I truly agree with you.

Please don't lose sight of the fact that teachers get paid extremely well with exceptional benefits but aren't being tasked to ensure they are offering tangible deliverables. What is wrong with periodic re-certification? Having periodic report cards based on the levels of success of their charges based on cross the province testing. There can easily be criteria added to the testing that takes into account household income demographics and geography. i.e. lower income inner city neighbourhoods compared to more affluent neighbourhoods.

Anyways this thread is about teachers and the union. Rant is over.

shizzle

^ I agree totally with the comment above. I'd go a step further and say that I don't begrudge the salaries teachers make, the vast majority deserve what they get.

The real conversation should be about the role unions can play in the future (since it's highly unlikely they're going away anytime soon). Can unions play a role in workplace innovation? If the unions can assist in making its members more productive, provide better service to its clientele etc., then there may be a role for them to play in the future. It's a paradigm shift (at least as I perceive them) since they're very much about getting the maximum amount for a minimum effort.

canuck964

Fanny Bay I see your point 100%.

But I learned a long time ago that you will never win an argument with a public sector worker.

Frankly they lack the desire to understand anything other than if they don't get what they want then they just have to go on strike.

I had to deal with a Worker's Compensation Board agent once and she started the case but then went on a 9 week holiday. Eventually when she came back and dealt with the issues I asked her how anyone is justified to receive 9 weeks holiday cause I don't know of anyone in the private sector with those benefits. Well she did not see any issues with getting 9 weeks holidays rather her opinion is that the real issue is that the public sector does not offer those benefits and they SHOULD?????? What a load of crap. Honestly I cannot believe there are people that really think that way.

I know this is a discussion about teachers and not the public sector worker but as a BC resident with the most unreasonable teacher's union in Canada I don't even want to express what I really think about teachers because the moderator will certainly delete my post.

Bob D..

Like other, I have been following this string with some interest.

My daughter, recently completing a honours math degree decided, after some thought, to pursue a teaching career. She will be great at it.

BUT, because of things put in place, there is not possibility of her getting a permanent job on graduation, Instead, there is a year or more of working through some hoops to get to an eligible-to-hire list, several months of which is competing with retired teachers for temporary positions.

Further, because of the "labor action"a number of her classmates were denied student teacher positions - apparently the assimilation of a student teacher is considered extra-curricular" and therefore optional.

When she received recently her grid position, based on her qualification, it came from the union, not the Ministry of Education. It seems a bit bankrupt that the union is determining the entry position, especially with the protectionist positioning regarding the ability to actually get a job.

According to the grid, she will start at about $45K - not fantastic but not the $30K that seems to get bandied about as the typical teacher wage.

As far as protecting the rights of the labour force from the inequities of the Bill, that's why we have the courts. Is the content of the Bill any more onerous than any other back to work legislation? We seem to be OK with legislating Air Canada back to work to supposedly avoid a meltdown of the economy ( although I suspect Westjet and Porter would suffice for a substantial percentage of the "disruption") - aren't our teachers, in the fullness of time, just as essential?

I think this union, as many others, has outlived its usefulness. Additionally, the supposed high-road positioning pertaining to protecting the rights of us all is just that - positioning.

canuck964

Bob - good luck to your daughter to getting a teaching position.

With the blessing of the UNIONS the worst of the worst teachers will never be fired.

I am a partner at my business and we are always hiring new employees even if we do not have a position open.

My mindset is that as soon as I hire a better employee I will fire the worst of my employees .... regardless of seniority.

With the teachers union's positions on seniority we will never see a bad teacher fired as long as they have seniority.

What an absolutely bullshet way of doing things.

Christien

I don't know, but recertification sounds like a bureaucratic nightmare. It's not like they're IT people with constantly changing technology, or depend on ongoing physical condition for their job. However I do agree that there should be rewards for working hard and excelling, and punishments for being lazy and just going through the motions. Whether it's a bonus system, higher salary, whatever it may be. I also think it should be possible to fire a teacher if they're lousy at their job, same as in any other industry. There's a massive glut of teachers right now, meaning it's a buyer's market for talent. We should only have the best of the best on the job.

I have a huge problem with legislating Air Canada workers back to work. In fact, I believe the definition of "essential services" has slipped so far in the last 10 years so as to have no meaning anymore. Essential services, IMO, are front-line health care workers, police and firefighters. That's it. I base that definition on what would happen to our society if they were to go on strike. People would die and crime would run rampant, guaranteed. Air Canada, TTC, teachers, etc. do not hold lives in their hands and do not deliver essential services. When they go on strike, people are inconvenienced, sure, and you can make an argument for the greater economic losses (i.e. people not getting to work during a ttc strike) but that doesn't make them essential. The problem is government abusing their power - you can't strike a deal? f**k 'em, legislate them back to work. I have a problem with that.

Christien

This is ludicrous. You write off a huge portion of the population because of one incident? However...

I couldn't agree with you more about this.

canuck964

OK so tell me this.

Do you agree with having a College of Teachers and an Union?

How do you feel about seniority. Shouldn't the best teachers stay and the bad ones be fired so there is an in flow of new teachers?

What about my concerns that with teachers belonging to a UNION they would not present both the left and right positions to the students? I spend a CONSIDERABLE amount of time talking to my children about the evils of the left wing positions.

997 St-Donat

I'm my province to get a full time job and the full protection of the union, you need to get a position of your own for 3 years... If you' re not doing the job they wont renew the contract at the end of year 1... 3 years try out seem fair to me.

If it does'nt work out you need to start again from scratch in a new school? After that the you start climbing seniority... Even then they' re ways to fire a teacher but the burdon is on the schoolboard... As for the possibity of bad teacher keeping their job, you bet it' common but more then other sphere of work? Have seen bad mechanic, bad police , bad doctor etc, Unionized or not ? As for being a lefty socialist man your wrong!!! Gouvernement are to big, corrupt at worst and incompetent at best... ( these days) We need a new way of governing... I'm giving half of my paycheck for an union that dont give a sh about me, for unemployement benefit that i Will never ( 35 years min career) be elligible, for welfare, for healtcare... But I'm not gonna complain because that is the contract i sign living in Canada. It's not perfect, it's our deal. As labour contract is a contract, union or not. I'v learn that the worst negotiated contract is far better than any force contract, in any type of workplacle, if you care about productivity and try to compete in a tough marketplace...

As for the security of my job it' is a trade off for the salary... Always was..
If i wont big $$$, i will go in the private sector, even teaching... Take a look at the nurses situation... I'm ok with grading teacher if it means that the best of us Will get paid as the best of our profession... =$$$ big money on the way for majority of us... Everybody thinks they can teach... That the core of the problem, we seem to have lost the respect of the profession.

Btw.it's my last post on the subject, thanks for Christien and everybody for the input. We are proof than discussion and arguments is still the best ways... Convincing, confronting argument is not imposing a law breaching a contract...

canuck964

997 St-Donat

I don't have any issues with what teachers are being paid. I have a business that employs only university graduates and they also require the equivalent to a post graduate degree. At the top of the pay scale they will command over $150,000 per year. I certainly don't have any issues with paying a teacher with a Masters degree over $100,000.

I have many friends who are teachers and many of them have a Masters degree.

What is interesting to me is that they ALL disagree with the position the unions are talking (we're talking BC here) but they feel they are powerless to do anything about it. In fact they express the concern that they are often bullied by shop stewards etc.

So why can't the teachers opt out of joining an union? Why do they have to put up with getting black listed by the shop stewards if they don't participate with union actions?

Now it does not mean I agree with everything my teaching friends believe in. The biggest disagreement I have with my friends is the issue of competition in the classroom. When I was growing up there was always an academic achievement award given to the top student in every class. There is now the belief that competition is not good as it creates disinfranchised students. So there is no longer any grading for elementary students and there was a movement to eliminate it for highschool also.

Luckily calmer heads prevailed and there is still grading for highschool.

The point I always make to my teacher friends is it is unreasonable to eliminate competition in school as I consider it a fundamental life skill that you must teach our kids. The real world is all about competition.
There is competition to get a job, get and keep a client etc.

997 St-Donat

+100

PG993

You can package it how you want, you camouflage it, you can call it Bill "this" or Bill "that", but, at the end of the day, as Kevin O'leary constantly reminds us, and he is always right.

"it's always about the money."

Christien

Except when it comes to matters of personal integrity. This is a man who admits to sacrificing his marriage for business. That tells me a lot about his character.