Like the new guidelines?

[Phokaioglaukos]

Rennlist is not a democracy, but we can still express our views, can't we?

[SundayDriver]

While the idea of a poll is fine, the results will not have much meaning. With 65,000 users of various participation levels you will only get accurate results if you do one of two things. Either get a large portion of those users to vote, or make sure you get a random cross section of users. You won't get either by posting a poll. If you do manage to get a thousand or more votes, then it probably does mean something.

But I am interested in the results, regardless. Thanks

[MPD47]

A G-rated motion picture contains nothing in theme, language, nudity, sex, violence or other matters that, in the view of the Rating Board, would offend parents whose younger children view the motion picture. The G rating is not a “certificate of approval,” nor does it signify a “children’s” motion picture. Some snippets of language may go beyond polite conversation but they are common everyday expressions. No stronger words are present in G-rated motion pictures. Depictions of violence are minimal. No nudity, sex scenes or drug use are present in the motion picture.

A PG-rated motion picture should be investigated by parents before they let their younger children attend. The PG rating indicates, in the view of the Rating Board, that parents may consider some material unsuitable for their children, and parents should make that decision.

The more mature themes in some PG-rated motion pictures may call for parental guidance. There may be some profanity and some depictions of violence or brief nudity. But these elements are not deemed so intense as to require that parents be strongly cautioned beyond the suggestion of parental guidance. There is no drug use content in a PG-rated motion picture.

A PG-13 rating is a sterner warning by the Rating Board to parents to determine whether their children under age 13 should view the motion picture, as some material might not be suited for them. A PG-13 motion picture may go beyond the PG rating in theme, violence, nudity, sensuality, language, adult activities or other elements, but does not reach the restricted R category. The theme of the motion picture by itself will not result in a rating greater than PG-13, although depictions of activities related to a mature theme may result in a restricted rating for the motion picture. Any drug use will initially require at least a PG-13 rating. More than brief nudity will require at least a PG-13 rating, but such nudity in a PG-13 rated motion picture generally will not be sexually oriented. There may be depictions of violence in a PG-13 movie, but generally not both realistic and extreme or persistent violence. A motion picture’s single use of one of the harsher sexually-derived words, though only as an expletive, initially requires at least a PG-13 rating. More than one such expletive requires an R rating, as must even one of those words used in a sexual context. The Rating Board nevertheless may rate such a motion picture PG-13 if, based on a special vote by a two-thirds majority, the Raters feel that most American parents would believe that a PG-13 rating is appropriate because of the context or manner in which the words are used or because the use of those words in the motion picture is inconspicuous.

An R-rated motion picture, in the view of the Rating Board, contains some adult material. An R-rated motion picture may include adult themes, adult activity, hard language, intense or persistent violence, sexually-oriented nudity, drug abuse or other elements, so that parents are counseled to take this rating very seriously. Children under 17 are not allowed to attend R-rated motion pictures unaccompanied by a parent or adult guardian. Parents are strongly urged to find out more about R-rated motion pictures in determining their suitability for their children. Generally, it is not appropriate for parents to bring their young children with them to R-rated motion pictures.

Just so we're clear on what rating means what, and that you need to be 13 or older to sign up for rennlist IIRC.

[Phokaioglaukos]

I was, and still am, I big proponent of Rennlist. In the forthcoming Jan/Feb issue of our PCA Region's magazine I have an article about on-line resources for the Porsche enthusiast. Rennlist is first and foremost in my recommendations and, although the article was submitted earlier this month before this recent guidelines ruckus erupted, I would not change a word of that recommendation. The quality of Porsche information here is as good as it gets.

That said, I think the pendulum has swung a bit far and has (temorarily, I hope) discouraged a few from posting here. I accept the need for the owners of Rennlist to monitor posts for libelous, copyright infringing and other illegal posts, but I think looking for a G-rating (or PG-13 in OT) is going much too far. In those terms I encourage an R-rating--no nudity but the occaisional bit of profanity doesn't bother me. Depictions of violence, which the MPAA does not seem much troubled by, are thankfully absent from these forums. I don't come here for NC-17 content.

I note that the moderators have not done nearly as much to root out postings of copyrighted material (beyond any reasonable bounds of fair use) as they have to bar photos of women in suggestive attire and poses. That says to me that the issue is prudery, not legal liability. It's not my set of forums, but that's not a change that I favor.

I doubt thousands of members and users will respond to this poll or support my view, and I may well be in a small minority--we'll probably never know and even if we did it may not affect the guidelines or their application. I'm just sad about it.

I also hope the moderators and administrators leave this forum up for a good, long time and don't delete it when the controversy dies down, as it certainly will.

[SundayDriver]

Chris,

First let me say that I appreciate your level headed comments - they add a lot of value to the discussions. The rules have and will evolve and we (moderators AND users) will make mistakes about this topic. I can see that a few people seem to have left some forums, but I also see the return of some (who have stayed away for some time). Let's not get hung up on the MPAA definitions of ratings - this is not a movie and the use of G or PG were (as I understand) only a way to concisely convey intent.

As far as what is being moderated, I can only comment on the few forums that I frequent. I have seen one, and only one, copyright violation in those forums and moderated that post in the same way I did with images. If I have missed some in the Racing?DE forum or HWFMR where I hang out, please let me know and I will be happy to be consistent. Even though I have spent a lot of time this weekend on Rennlist, I have other things in my life and do not read everything that gets posted. The same is true of other mods, and especially during the holidays when people are busy and traveling. You won't get perfection in the job we try to do (but we are open to volunteers who can be perfect).

As much as we might want to pretend that there is a clear standard, there is not. Let's take the racy images as an example. The moderators allowed certain things for years - we can agree on that, I think. So a couple of users pushed the edge with an avatar. You might see that one or two times in a small percentage of threads in a forum. Edgy but not really a big problem so it was accepted. New people join and we end up with more racy avatars. It gets to the point where you are hard pressed to find a single thread in that same forum that does not contain many such images.

Add to that some users decide to add a bunch of racy photos. Then we start bashing certain groups - not on a rare basis where it might be amusing, but over and over and over. You can point to almost any single post, avatar or image and say it is not a big deal, but taken as a whole, it was getting pretty ugly (that is my opinion and shared by others as well). So if we set the rule to be R rated avatars, some members of the community have proven that they will push and push as hard as they can to take it to the edge. How can I tell one user that they cannot use certain material while another is allowed to use exactly the same image but it is because of the number of posts they make? It won't work and as a moderator I have no interest in trying to fight that battle.

OT posts are a similar problem in tech forums. A few OT posts don't hurt the overall content but if 8 out of 12 of the top listed threads are OT, then we have a new OT forum and have lost the intent of that forum. Quantity and excess play into this as well as absolute content.

Maybe there is a better way to reign it in, but it seems to me that we needed to tighten the rules to account for those few who pushed it too far. I imagine it will cycle over time and the rules and enforcement will drift back and forth. That is what happens in a real community.

By contrast, I will use the example of Corner Carvers. I am not bashing them - they have a great forum for what it is. And one of the reasons it is what it is are the rules. Their rules are firm. They do not budge on the rules. If you violate the rules (often the very first time) you are gone. They are consistent and very stable over time. But that is not what Rennlist is or wants to be.

O, I am done for now. I don't expect agreement from you with the rules but hope this gets you thinking. Truly if you have better ideas about how to reign in the bad behavior that has driven away a lot of participants of the past year, I would like to hear the suggestions.

[Phokaioglaukos]

Mark, no question my tolerance for racy images exceeds the current level at Rennlist, but I do recognize the drift we had outside of OT towards more and increasingly racy images and I can see that it has bothered some people. You are also right that many posters like to test the limits--that is easy to see in the I'd Hit It thread in OT. (I didn't find OT until my third year here, and it rather shocked me at first. Now I know what to expect there and check in from time to time for a smile.)

I don't envy your task in pulling the non-OT forums back from the abyss (as it were). Your measured and thoughtful analysis of the situation and your good intentions do give me much to think about, and I'm trending to agreement.

[Mikelly]

I voted that the rules are a bit to strict. I would prefer to see the rules at a PG13 level. Although I don't care one way or the other, I think the admins/moderators could better serve our membership by not allowing member on member attacks, as seen regularly over the years in the DE/Racing forum.

Do I need to see R rated material here on rennlist? No. Should we be clamping down to the level of "G"? No. Let's strike a better balance gang. I come here to enjoy myself and learn/contribute for others to learn. I don't want to have to tiptoe around like I'm being watched, but also should understand there are rules and I should follow them as should we all.

We have people who have been here for many years. Some of them feel entitled to act poorly, and have been encouraged to do so for many years. This is no different than letting your teen get away with bad behavior for years. Then one day you decide to "make them mind". So now you have those who felt entitled and got banned who'se lips are pouched out and they are pouting, like children I might add. All because they can't do as they wish.

Get over it. The folks who "OWN" the site can and will do as they choose. We don't operate under free speech here. It's the interweb. Al Gores little invention of mass communication and interaction. They own the content. They pay for it to be displayed here. Yes we pay membership dues *(some of us do). What does that mean? Do you expect to be able to be able to avoid the rules?



That smilie is very appropriate. The rules have been in place for a long time, since before I joined two years ago, and now they are being enforced.

That's my $.02, not that it matters...

Mike

[smshirk]

I have previously voiced my displeasure with the current crack-down or whatever the re-enforcement of existing rules represents. I do not take issue with the obscenity guidelines. Even being a nuisance and especially being personally offensive to fellow Rennlisters is within the realm of common civility in my opinion, and shouldn’t be tolerated. I don’t believe I have ever broken any rules on this forum. I do, however, take issue with some of the rules that give moderators the power to determine the intent of a particular post, particularly when it can now be a moderator not generally familiar with the particular sub forum, including the history of any common theme or subject.

Case in point:

“Promoting a Vendor: Praise and a recommendation of a vendor by users is encouraged as a service to the community. On the other hand, excessive promotion of vendor(s), i.e., cheer leading, will be viewed as advertising.”

What therefore constitutes cheer leading? What are the guidelines for determining the difference? What is excessive VS just being a happy customer? How many or how positive can one be without being censored? One the one hand this behavior is encouraged, and at the same time, we can receive punitive measures, if we cross that invisible line? I don’t feel comfortable being censored by someone who is making a judgment call about the intent of a post.

In my opinion, and I do not intend for this to be personally offensive to anyone, but giving the freedom to determine the intent of a post to any random moderator is inviting problems. So now any moderator has the right, and even the implied responsibility to determine whether a post is intended to be advertising or merely a recommendation for a new product, service, or even a mechanic?

A specific example can be offered by the 996 forum, where there have been many threads over the years concerning catastrophic failures, RMS leaks, etc. When some individual, company, or any combination thereof discovers a new method, product, or maintenance schedule, one could be censored for being too enthusiastic? Assuming the moderator isn't familiar with the specific sub forum VS a moderator who regularly reads all the posts, comments could be construed in different ways. Just the fact that "intent" is to be determined, and one can be punished without any input is objectionable.

Perhaps I am over reacting. I recognize that is a possibility. However, as a result I no longer feel free to post here. I have found other outlets for communicating that do not offer the same level of benefits represented at Rennlist, but I can post without worrying that anything I say could be censored or otherwise misconstrued to the level of receiving punitive measures such as demerits. I had those in military school and their very existence represent the high probability of misuse.

[trumperZ06]

IMO... This is an ADULT community and should be run as one.

PG-13 guidelines seem a better fit... than worrying about the possibility of small children sitting on someone's lap... setting the "standards" for Rennlist.

We come here to communicate and discuss a grownup hobby... and should be allowed to behave at that level.

[JackOlsen]

Children aren't allowed to drive. It seems reasonable that the board can be aimed at the 16-and-over crowd.

[Bonster]

You don't have to use foul language to have a good time, Tommy. In fact, my mother used to say that folks who could not speak without using foul language were merely showing their lack of education. And I don't think she meant education as in the fortunate folks who got to go to college. I think she meant it in a very general way.

When I get a bloody knuckle after a wrench slips, I very well might yell out an obsenity. But that is mostly because it was an instantaneous response to pain. On this forum, you have time to sit and read your post before hitting 'submit'. There is no excuse for profanity here. We let a lot of stuff go, but we also know that you can easily curb one little word from your vocabulary. Give me a break. You're surely smarter than that.

Meanwhile, I'm glad you think Rennlist is still 'awesome.' Maybe even flippin' awesome.

[Bonster]

Originally Posted by trumperZ06

We come here to communicate and discuss a grownup hobby... and should be allowed to behave at that level.

***I agree . . . but not everybody is acting like a grown-up now, are they? One sour apple ruins the whole pie. If we didn't have 'children' (and I don't mean the under 16 kind) ruining it by going overboard, we'd have never had to enforce all these rules in the first place. Know what I mean, Vern? Yeah, yeah, I know . . . your name isn't Vern.

As a side, be sure to give your 'Vette a good work-out for me.

[tommytomaso]

Originally Posted by Bonster

You don't have to use foul language to have a good time, Tommy. In fact, my mother used to say that folks who could not speak without using foul language were merely showing their lack of education. And I don't think she meant education as in the fortunate folks who got to go to college. I think she meant it in a very general way.

When I get a bloody knuckle after a wrench slips, I very well might yell out an obsenity. But that is mostly because it was an instantaneous response to pain. On this forum, you have time to sit and read your post before hitting 'submit'. There is no excuse for profanity here. We let a lot of stuff go, but we also know that you can easily curb one little word from your vocabulary. Give me a break. You're surely smarter than that.

Meanwhile, I'm glad you think Rennlist is still 'awesome.' Maybe even flippin' awesome.

geee.. lack of education...hmmmmmmmmmmm thats insulting... but i guess insulting people is ok....as long as you dont use foul language!!!
And by the way ask any 14 yr old what "flippin" means and they will tell you its a nice way of saying "F*CKIN" man you people are sounding like Catholic Nuns!!!!!... who by the way had/have a great way of insulting people that dont think like them with "nice" words......how in the hell dos that make them more educated? its all in context people!!! GROW UP!!!!! stop classifing people by what words they use...start gauge them by thier context!!!!
and i hope to god not on thier spelling........= )

[Bonster]

Oh please, Tommy, you weren't insulted and you knew what I meant about 'educated' and you know it. You're just tryin gto get attention. You were asked to simply exclude one lousy word from your posting vocabulary. I obviously cannot see your face as you posted the above comment, but I have a feeling you were laughing. And no, nobody's going to think any less of you for your spelling, lol. Food Angel might correct it though. She's known for that, lol.

Lol on the Catholic nuns . . . are there any other kind of nuns?

[smshirk]

Originally Posted by Bonster

Oh please, Tommy, you weren't insulted and you knew what I meant about 'educated' and you know it. You're just tryin gto get attention. You were asked to simply exclude one lousy word from your posting vocabulary. I obviously cannot see your face as you posted the above comment, but I have a feeling you were laughing. And no, nobody's going to think any less of you for your spelling, lol. Food Angel might correct it though. She's known for that, lol.

Lol on the Catholic nuns . . . are there any other kind of nuns?

As matter of fact, yes there are nuns other than catholic nuns. Buddist nuns for instance http://www.buddhanet.net/mag_nuns.htm At the rate we are going we might even be able to start our own Renncloister