DE Insurance Coverage
04-19-2005, 02:28 PM
#1
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Rennlist Member
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Thread Starter
DE Insurance Coverage
Hi
Recently took my GT3 into a tire barrier during a DE. My insurance company fully covered it, but am considering obtaining supplemental coverage and/or DE-specific coverage for any future mishaps.
I've had one company recommended to me, American Collectors Insurance, (http://www.americancollectorsins.com/de_policy.htm), but would like to get additional quotes.
Anyone have other recommendations?
Thanks
Recently took my GT3 into a tire barrier during a DE. My insurance company fully covered it, but am considering obtaining supplemental coverage and/or DE-specific coverage for any future mishaps.
I've had one company recommended to me, American Collectors Insurance, (http://www.americancollectorsins.com/de_policy.htm), but would like to get additional quotes.
Anyone have other recommendations?
Thanks
04-19-2005, 02:38 PM
#2
Rennlist Member
This was discussed recently. Check
https://rennlist.com/forums/racing-and-drivers-education-forum/197525-de-insurance.html
https://rennlist.com/forums/racing-and-drivers-education-forum/197525-de-insurance.html
04-20-2005, 01:42 AM
#3
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Join Date: Jun 2001
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Following is my insurance file. Hope that it is helpful.
Track CAR - INSURANCE
Subject: [racing] Re: Insurance, 3/20/00
From: Billy WCHMCH@aol.com
For storage and transportation, I've used Parish Insurance - assume they still advertise in Excellence and/or Pano. About $300 or so premium for $50k insurance. Very pleasant to work with, but then I've ever had a claim.
Subject: [racing] RE: insuring a track car - or any car, 10/26/00
From: "Todd B. Serota" tserota@primenet.com
<< Where is it written that any of us have a right, or even a need for insurance at a track event. >>
----------
The answer to that question is simple: in your auto insurance policy. Insurance law generally dictates that if something isn't excluded, it's included. The majority of auto insurance policies exclude racing or preparation for racing, but not driving schools, or putting your car on a racetrack for any purpose. DE events are very carefully organized as schools, with no competition, and no preparation for future competition (I know a bit about this, since I run 6 of them per year under the auspices of TracQuest). Some companies will put up a fight (and usually cave when they get a fight in return), but many have just paid routinely, as it should be.
<< Not including liability coverage. If you're counting said car as an asset you need to seriously re-think. Cars, no matter how much we love them aren't assets they are appliances. >>
----------
I'm not sure what this means. Assets are what you own. Therefore, appliances are assets. A car may be a depreciating asset, but it's an asset nonetheless, and if someone else is legally obligated to fix it when it's damaged, most people would rather not spend the money themselves. If you took out a service contract on your oven and it broke within the covered period, you'd expect the service company to honor its obligation and fix it under the contract. The same is true for your car at a DE event.
<< Insurance companies are gambling that you'll spend more on premiums than they'll pay in claims and are really, REALLY good at winning that bet. >>
----------
Well, sort of. Sadly, insurance companies don't really need to pay out less in claims than they accept in premiums to make A LOT of money. All they have to do is hold on to those billions of dollars in premiums as long as possible and invest them. If an insurance company takes in a billion dollars in premiums and pays out that same billion, but manages to keep the money for a year (by abusing its insureds as much as possible), at a 10% return, the company makes $100 million in gross income, even though it paid out all of the money it took in.
Subject: [racing] RE: DE and theft insurance, 3/26/01
From: "Derrek Khajavi" huntleyracing@home.com
Allstate. They don't exclude track use.
Subject: [racing] Re: On and Off Track Insurance, 7/25/01
From: "George Beuselinck" georgeb@944ecology.com
Without permission of the author, I am crossposting his post to the PCA forum on Club Racing, in the Insurance Waivers topic:
I looked at track insurance about 18 months ago, and spoke with Conseco, which is the only one I found.
They will do it on a daily rate or an annual rate, which is dependent upon the days of use, value of car, etc. I had put my car's replacement value at $35,000, which I now think is too low by about 20%. My daily rate would be $281, and annual rate would be $2,812 for up to 30 days of use. There's a 10% deductible, so it makes you use your best judgment on replacement value.
I spoke with Peter Ledwith at 800-678-0361 x5169. Be sure you tell him you're with PCA, as that is important.
Ultimately, I didn't do it, but still might.
In addition to on-track coverage, there is available PST insurance, which I recently have bought from John Heckman 215-540-4435. PST stands for Paddock, Storage and Transportation insurance, and protects your car against theft or damage while not on the track. It is pretty inexpensive, $252 per year for $42,000 replacement value, and I thought it was worth the money.
My auto insurer would only insure my 73 911 at its idea of replacement value, which probably would be below $10,000. I once explored asking for increased coverage from them, which is available for collector cars, but they would only do it after inspecting the car or at least a lot of pictures. I don't want my auto insurer to know I race, since they also have my other insurance, so I've had my race car grossly underinsured against theft for a long time before finding out about this option.
Subject: Re: insurance for DE (was Re: How to roll your Audi) 1/2/02
From: George Roffe geo3@earthlink.net
Here is a response from a friend from the SE-R Mailing List and G20 forum. He works for State Farm in CA:
I just reviewed the State Farm policy for California and could not find any coverage exclusions for use of a vehicle on a race track, for racing, or even off-roading. So, I would think liability coverage as well as collision and comprehensive coverage would apply if a loss occurs during an open track event.
I thought there was some exclusion on racing, but it doesn't seem like there is. I'm probably thinking about rental car contracts that specifically prohibit racing, track events, etc. (I always feel a bit worried when reading those messages on the SE-R list about having a rental car competition for the track event at the convention).
But, again, I only reviewed a California policy and the policies and laws in other states may differ. The one thing to remember about insurance policies are that they are contracts which are often subject to interpretation. For instance, if a policy in Texas excludes coverage for "racing", you might be able to successfully argue that an open track event does not constitute "racing". Since insurance policies are contracts of adhesion, ie. written by one side (insurance company) and agreed to by the other side (insured/consumer), if there is any ambiguity in how a policy condition can be interpreted, the courts will always interpret the contract in favor of the insured/consumer. With the insurance company I work for, our general goal is always to look for ways to extend coverage rather than exclude or deny coverage.
The best thing to do is to contact the claim office (not the agent) of your insurance carrier and ask them if they would cover a specific type of event or use of your vehicle.
IMO (and this is definitely just MY personal opinion), there would be coverage for open track events and even racing. I've handled several accident claims involving street racing (a fully covered loss), but have not had any experience with losses involving vehicles used in open track events or club racing type events. I guess this should be a testament to how safe open track and organized racing events are compared to "street racing".
Subject: [racing] Re: Insurance, 3/5/02
From: paulamico@comcast.net
Pacific Insurance Corp has started a program that is similar to the now defunct Conseco program. You can get yearly (covering 30 days) or daily coverage. The program is very straightforward, and run by very professional team. The lead for this is Peter Sereda. Contact info is:
888-305-4442
laurelcg@mnsi.net
or you can apply at their website at http://pacificontrack.com
They are a company that insures professional teams (our World Challenge team uses them) and has expanded to PCA. Give them a try.
Subject: [racing] Driver's Education, 3/20/02
From: "Courtney Ford" claue@americancollectors.net
I represent American Collectors Insurance located in New Jersey (though we write business nationally). We provide, predominantly, insurance courage for collector vehicles. However, we have developed a program for on-track auto physical damage coverage for owners of high performance vehicles, such as yourself, when involved in Driver's Education events. I have enclosed a press release as well as a link to our website, specifically the Driver's Ed page. I look forward to working with many of you soon!
Submission for New Markets
Driver's Education
Auto Physical Damage Coverage
American Collectors Insurance is now offering Auto Physical Damage Coverage for high performance vehicles (e.g., BMWs, Corvettes, Porsches) used on-track in Driver's Education events. Driver's Education events are designed to provide on-track safety and handling instruction to owners of high performance vehicles. Standard auto policies typically exclude on-track coverage. American Collectors' program will pay for damage or loss arising from Driver's Education events; Agreed Value in the event of total loss; replacement parts of like kind and quality and the cost for the use of "expert" repair shops. Trailer transit and storage coverage is included.
Dollars: Minimum written premium $150. Liability coverage is not available.
Carrier: American Bankers Insurance Company of Florida, rated "A" by A.M. Best.
States Available: California, Pennsylvania, Illinois, and Connecticut.
Contact: (800) 360-2277 or visit www.AmericanCollectorsIns.com -
http://www.americancollectorsins.com/driversed.htm (to go directly to the Driver's Ed page)
Subject: [racing] RE: Driver's Education, 3/20/02
From: "Todd Serota" tserota@adelphia.net
Bryan Carlson magisterc@yahoo.com wrote:
<< Todd speaks wisely about what insurers will do and what they can not do or say. For example, in Texas, the policy is prescribed by the state and prohibits "competition". This might allow them to exclude an Auto-x where there is timing and trophies, or TT where the same is in effect, but a DE with NO competition is
not excluded by any of the wording of the policy. If it is not excluded it enters an area of great difficulty in terms of the cost of paying a claim versus the cost of a bad faith lawsuit. At least when I was in insurance we weighed the millions of dollars that courts pay in bad faith versus the few thousand that was on the line in settling a claim very carefully. >>
<< Unless you receive an endorsement to your policy, or your policy has language to exclude a DE you have a very good shot at being covered and Todd or some other lawyer would love to help you recover millions if you are denied. Read your policy and consult with a knowledgeable professional about what is or is not covered. I agree with Todd that the original statement is one that is beyond what you might legally want to claim. >>
<< Hope none of you ever has to worry about a DE related claim. BTW some insurers have sought to deny coverage for street racers under the competition exception. This is an interesting move. Even if the race is not one that is legal or sanctioned but you are competing it might still be excluded as "competition". >>
----------
Bryan knows of what he speaks. Most states, and likely every state, have bad faith laws. It's one thing for an insurer to tell an insured that there is no coverage in a quick attempt to get him/her to go away. But once a lawyer is involved, and the magic two words are mentioned ("bad faith"), it's a whole different story. Moreover, in the situations I'm aware of, it never even got that far. The insurers just paid because they knew they had to under their policy language. The basic rule of insurance is that something is included, unless it's excluded.
Subject: [racing] RE: Driver's Edcuation, 3/20/02
From: "Todd Serota" tserota@adelphia.net
Derick Cooper derick_cooper@yahoo.com wrote:
<< I think most broad based carriers have wised up quite a bit to the real risks of DE. I looked into the coverage possibilities recently and the general attitude has changed quite a bit (correlates roughly with the increase in DE participation) over the last couple of years. >>
<< We have all heard stories about how insurers relectantly paid DE-related claims because they weren't specifically "competitive" events, but insurers are wising up to the risks of on-track, non-racing events. >>
<< I think Courtney's statements are far more accurate than you realize. For example, Traveler's now asks if sports cars are equipped with "racing items." >>
<< Larger broadline carriers have certainly made the mistake in the past of not realizing they were insuring higher-risk DE events without specific premiums for such coverage. They won't continue to do so. >>
<< I think Courtney's statements are far more accurate than you imply. >>
<< If you (the general you) are worried about DE coverage, you better get a letter in writing from your broadline insurer specifically stating you are
covered. >>
<< Broadline insurers aren't going to go blindly into the night insuring additional risks without being compensated for that risk. Some may not yet realize they are doing so, but that won't last long either. >>
----------
One would logically think that if insurers are offering coverage that they don't intend to offer, they will change their policy language to compensate. However, it usually takes a long time for this to happen. I've had numerous potential TracQuest participants check the language in their auto policies over the last year when they inquired about coverage and tell me what the language said. Every policy (obviously with different carriers) said essentially the same thing, excluding only racing and competition events, and preparation for same. Otoh, I'm not aware of even one instance where a carrier has refused coverage because the incident happened on a race track, as long as it was a DE event, and
there was nothing competitive happening. As such, I don't believe that the press release statement Courtney posted is even close to accurate. If it is, I'd like to see him list all of the major carriers (or any for that matter) which exclude driving on a track, without racing or competition involved, as at a DE event. In fact, I'd like to see him simply provide the basis for the statement. Someone at his firm must have done quite a bit of research before making such a dramatic statement.
Even still, carriers will attempt to avoid coverage at every turn, and for as long as possible. That's how they make their money (nothing personal, Courtney, but that's the insurance industry). Many agents (like State Farm agents, where they are not independent) have been known to tell insureds that they're not covered for any activity on a race track. In every such instance I'm aware of, they were just plain wrong, and were speaking off the top of their heads, with what they expected would be the case. I told these insureds to have the agent point to policy language which excluded such activity, and none could do it (although one still stubbornly maintained that there couldn't be coverage, kind of on "general principles" - made me laugh).
I wouldn't advise that people ask for letters from their carriers saying that they're covered. If a carrier secretly doesn't want its insureds participating in DE events, then such a request could result in a non-renewal, unnecessarily if the insured never even has an incident. And of course, the insured would never know the real reason why.
Subject: [racing] RE: Driver's Edcuation, 3/20/02
From: Bryan Carlson magisterc@yahoo.com
Derick Cooper derick_cooper@yahoo.com wrote:
<< I think most broad based carriers have wised up quite a bit to the real risks of DE. I looked into the coverage possibilities recently and the general attitude has changed quite a bit (correlates roughly with the increase in DE participation) over the last couple of years. >>
<< We have all heard stories about how insurers reluctantly paid DE-related claims because they weren't specifically "competitive" events, but insurers are wising up to the risks of on-track, non-racing events. >>
<< I think Courtney's statements are far more accurate than you realize. For example, Traveler's now asks if sports cars are equipped with "racing items." >>
<< Larger broadline carriers have certainly made the mistake in the past of not realizing they were insuring higher-risk DE events without specific premiums for such coverage. They won't continue to do so. >>
<< I think Courtney's statements are far more accurate than you imply. >>
<< If you (the general you) are worried about DE coverage, you better get a letter in writing from your broadline insurer specifically stating you are covered. >>
<< Broadline insurers aren't going to go blindly into the night insuring additional risks without being compensated for that risk. Some may not yet realize they are doing so, but that won't last long either. >>
----------
Todd speaks wisely about what insurers will do and what they can not do or say. For example, in Texas, the policy is prescribed by the state and prohibits "competition". This might allow them to exclude an Auto-x where there is timing and trophies, or TT where the same is in effect, but a DE with NO competition is
not excluded by any of the wording of the policy. If it is not excluded it enters an area of great difficulty in terms of the cost of paying a claim versus the cost of a bad faith lawsuit. At least when I was in insurance we weighed the millions of dollars that courts pay in bad faith versus the few thousand that was on the line in settling a claim very carefully.
Unless you receive an endorsement to your policy, or your policy has language to exclude a DE you have a very good shot at being covered and Todd or some other lawyer would love to help you recover millions if you are denied. Read your policy and consult with a knowledgeable professional about what is or is not covered. I agree with Todd that the original statement is one that is beyond what you might legally want to claim. Hope none of you ever has to worry about a DE related claim.
BTW some insurers have sought to deny coverage for street racers under the competition exception. This is an interesting move. Even if the race is not one that is legal or sanctioned but you are competing it might still be excluded as "competition".
Track CAR - INSURANCE
Subject: [racing] Re: Insurance, 3/20/00
From: Billy WCHMCH@aol.com
For storage and transportation, I've used Parish Insurance - assume they still advertise in Excellence and/or Pano. About $300 or so premium for $50k insurance. Very pleasant to work with, but then I've ever had a claim.
Subject: [racing] RE: insuring a track car - or any car, 10/26/00
From: "Todd B. Serota" tserota@primenet.com
<< Where is it written that any of us have a right, or even a need for insurance at a track event. >>
----------
The answer to that question is simple: in your auto insurance policy. Insurance law generally dictates that if something isn't excluded, it's included. The majority of auto insurance policies exclude racing or preparation for racing, but not driving schools, or putting your car on a racetrack for any purpose. DE events are very carefully organized as schools, with no competition, and no preparation for future competition (I know a bit about this, since I run 6 of them per year under the auspices of TracQuest). Some companies will put up a fight (and usually cave when they get a fight in return), but many have just paid routinely, as it should be.
<< Not including liability coverage. If you're counting said car as an asset you need to seriously re-think. Cars, no matter how much we love them aren't assets they are appliances. >>
----------
I'm not sure what this means. Assets are what you own. Therefore, appliances are assets. A car may be a depreciating asset, but it's an asset nonetheless, and if someone else is legally obligated to fix it when it's damaged, most people would rather not spend the money themselves. If you took out a service contract on your oven and it broke within the covered period, you'd expect the service company to honor its obligation and fix it under the contract. The same is true for your car at a DE event.
<< Insurance companies are gambling that you'll spend more on premiums than they'll pay in claims and are really, REALLY good at winning that bet. >>
----------
Well, sort of. Sadly, insurance companies don't really need to pay out less in claims than they accept in premiums to make A LOT of money. All they have to do is hold on to those billions of dollars in premiums as long as possible and invest them. If an insurance company takes in a billion dollars in premiums and pays out that same billion, but manages to keep the money for a year (by abusing its insureds as much as possible), at a 10% return, the company makes $100 million in gross income, even though it paid out all of the money it took in.
Subject: [racing] RE: DE and theft insurance, 3/26/01
From: "Derrek Khajavi" huntleyracing@home.com
Allstate. They don't exclude track use.
Subject: [racing] Re: On and Off Track Insurance, 7/25/01
From: "George Beuselinck" georgeb@944ecology.com
Without permission of the author, I am crossposting his post to the PCA forum on Club Racing, in the Insurance Waivers topic:
I looked at track insurance about 18 months ago, and spoke with Conseco, which is the only one I found.
They will do it on a daily rate or an annual rate, which is dependent upon the days of use, value of car, etc. I had put my car's replacement value at $35,000, which I now think is too low by about 20%. My daily rate would be $281, and annual rate would be $2,812 for up to 30 days of use. There's a 10% deductible, so it makes you use your best judgment on replacement value.
I spoke with Peter Ledwith at 800-678-0361 x5169. Be sure you tell him you're with PCA, as that is important.
Ultimately, I didn't do it, but still might.
In addition to on-track coverage, there is available PST insurance, which I recently have bought from John Heckman 215-540-4435. PST stands for Paddock, Storage and Transportation insurance, and protects your car against theft or damage while not on the track. It is pretty inexpensive, $252 per year for $42,000 replacement value, and I thought it was worth the money.
My auto insurer would only insure my 73 911 at its idea of replacement value, which probably would be below $10,000. I once explored asking for increased coverage from them, which is available for collector cars, but they would only do it after inspecting the car or at least a lot of pictures. I don't want my auto insurer to know I race, since they also have my other insurance, so I've had my race car grossly underinsured against theft for a long time before finding out about this option.
Subject: Re: insurance for DE (was Re: How to roll your Audi) 1/2/02
From: George Roffe geo3@earthlink.net
Here is a response from a friend from the SE-R Mailing List and G20 forum. He works for State Farm in CA:
I just reviewed the State Farm policy for California and could not find any coverage exclusions for use of a vehicle on a race track, for racing, or even off-roading. So, I would think liability coverage as well as collision and comprehensive coverage would apply if a loss occurs during an open track event.
I thought there was some exclusion on racing, but it doesn't seem like there is. I'm probably thinking about rental car contracts that specifically prohibit racing, track events, etc. (I always feel a bit worried when reading those messages on the SE-R list about having a rental car competition for the track event at the convention).
But, again, I only reviewed a California policy and the policies and laws in other states may differ. The one thing to remember about insurance policies are that they are contracts which are often subject to interpretation. For instance, if a policy in Texas excludes coverage for "racing", you might be able to successfully argue that an open track event does not constitute "racing". Since insurance policies are contracts of adhesion, ie. written by one side (insurance company) and agreed to by the other side (insured/consumer), if there is any ambiguity in how a policy condition can be interpreted, the courts will always interpret the contract in favor of the insured/consumer. With the insurance company I work for, our general goal is always to look for ways to extend coverage rather than exclude or deny coverage.
The best thing to do is to contact the claim office (not the agent) of your insurance carrier and ask them if they would cover a specific type of event or use of your vehicle.
IMO (and this is definitely just MY personal opinion), there would be coverage for open track events and even racing. I've handled several accident claims involving street racing (a fully covered loss), but have not had any experience with losses involving vehicles used in open track events or club racing type events. I guess this should be a testament to how safe open track and organized racing events are compared to "street racing".
Subject: [racing] Re: Insurance, 3/5/02
From: paulamico@comcast.net
Pacific Insurance Corp has started a program that is similar to the now defunct Conseco program. You can get yearly (covering 30 days) or daily coverage. The program is very straightforward, and run by very professional team. The lead for this is Peter Sereda. Contact info is:
888-305-4442
laurelcg@mnsi.net
or you can apply at their website at http://pacificontrack.com
They are a company that insures professional teams (our World Challenge team uses them) and has expanded to PCA. Give them a try.
Subject: [racing] Driver's Education, 3/20/02
From: "Courtney Ford" claue@americancollectors.net
I represent American Collectors Insurance located in New Jersey (though we write business nationally). We provide, predominantly, insurance courage for collector vehicles. However, we have developed a program for on-track auto physical damage coverage for owners of high performance vehicles, such as yourself, when involved in Driver's Education events. I have enclosed a press release as well as a link to our website, specifically the Driver's Ed page. I look forward to working with many of you soon!
Submission for New Markets
Driver's Education
Auto Physical Damage Coverage
American Collectors Insurance is now offering Auto Physical Damage Coverage for high performance vehicles (e.g., BMWs, Corvettes, Porsches) used on-track in Driver's Education events. Driver's Education events are designed to provide on-track safety and handling instruction to owners of high performance vehicles. Standard auto policies typically exclude on-track coverage. American Collectors' program will pay for damage or loss arising from Driver's Education events; Agreed Value in the event of total loss; replacement parts of like kind and quality and the cost for the use of "expert" repair shops. Trailer transit and storage coverage is included.
Dollars: Minimum written premium $150. Liability coverage is not available.
Carrier: American Bankers Insurance Company of Florida, rated "A" by A.M. Best.
States Available: California, Pennsylvania, Illinois, and Connecticut.
Contact: (800) 360-2277 or visit www.AmericanCollectorsIns.com -
http://www.americancollectorsins.com/driversed.htm (to go directly to the Driver's Ed page)
Subject: [racing] RE: Driver's Education, 3/20/02
From: "Todd Serota" tserota@adelphia.net
Bryan Carlson magisterc@yahoo.com wrote:
<< Todd speaks wisely about what insurers will do and what they can not do or say. For example, in Texas, the policy is prescribed by the state and prohibits "competition". This might allow them to exclude an Auto-x where there is timing and trophies, or TT where the same is in effect, but a DE with NO competition is
not excluded by any of the wording of the policy. If it is not excluded it enters an area of great difficulty in terms of the cost of paying a claim versus the cost of a bad faith lawsuit. At least when I was in insurance we weighed the millions of dollars that courts pay in bad faith versus the few thousand that was on the line in settling a claim very carefully. >>
<< Unless you receive an endorsement to your policy, or your policy has language to exclude a DE you have a very good shot at being covered and Todd or some other lawyer would love to help you recover millions if you are denied. Read your policy and consult with a knowledgeable professional about what is or is not covered. I agree with Todd that the original statement is one that is beyond what you might legally want to claim. >>
<< Hope none of you ever has to worry about a DE related claim. BTW some insurers have sought to deny coverage for street racers under the competition exception. This is an interesting move. Even if the race is not one that is legal or sanctioned but you are competing it might still be excluded as "competition". >>
----------
Bryan knows of what he speaks. Most states, and likely every state, have bad faith laws. It's one thing for an insurer to tell an insured that there is no coverage in a quick attempt to get him/her to go away. But once a lawyer is involved, and the magic two words are mentioned ("bad faith"), it's a whole different story. Moreover, in the situations I'm aware of, it never even got that far. The insurers just paid because they knew they had to under their policy language. The basic rule of insurance is that something is included, unless it's excluded.
Subject: [racing] RE: Driver's Edcuation, 3/20/02
From: "Todd Serota" tserota@adelphia.net
Derick Cooper derick_cooper@yahoo.com wrote:
<< I think most broad based carriers have wised up quite a bit to the real risks of DE. I looked into the coverage possibilities recently and the general attitude has changed quite a bit (correlates roughly with the increase in DE participation) over the last couple of years. >>
<< We have all heard stories about how insurers relectantly paid DE-related claims because they weren't specifically "competitive" events, but insurers are wising up to the risks of on-track, non-racing events. >>
<< I think Courtney's statements are far more accurate than you realize. For example, Traveler's now asks if sports cars are equipped with "racing items." >>
<< Larger broadline carriers have certainly made the mistake in the past of not realizing they were insuring higher-risk DE events without specific premiums for such coverage. They won't continue to do so. >>
<< I think Courtney's statements are far more accurate than you imply. >>
<< If you (the general you) are worried about DE coverage, you better get a letter in writing from your broadline insurer specifically stating you are
covered. >>
<< Broadline insurers aren't going to go blindly into the night insuring additional risks without being compensated for that risk. Some may not yet realize they are doing so, but that won't last long either. >>
----------
One would logically think that if insurers are offering coverage that they don't intend to offer, they will change their policy language to compensate. However, it usually takes a long time for this to happen. I've had numerous potential TracQuest participants check the language in their auto policies over the last year when they inquired about coverage and tell me what the language said. Every policy (obviously with different carriers) said essentially the same thing, excluding only racing and competition events, and preparation for same. Otoh, I'm not aware of even one instance where a carrier has refused coverage because the incident happened on a race track, as long as it was a DE event, and
there was nothing competitive happening. As such, I don't believe that the press release statement Courtney posted is even close to accurate. If it is, I'd like to see him list all of the major carriers (or any for that matter) which exclude driving on a track, without racing or competition involved, as at a DE event. In fact, I'd like to see him simply provide the basis for the statement. Someone at his firm must have done quite a bit of research before making such a dramatic statement.
Even still, carriers will attempt to avoid coverage at every turn, and for as long as possible. That's how they make their money (nothing personal, Courtney, but that's the insurance industry). Many agents (like State Farm agents, where they are not independent) have been known to tell insureds that they're not covered for any activity on a race track. In every such instance I'm aware of, they were just plain wrong, and were speaking off the top of their heads, with what they expected would be the case. I told these insureds to have the agent point to policy language which excluded such activity, and none could do it (although one still stubbornly maintained that there couldn't be coverage, kind of on "general principles" - made me laugh).
I wouldn't advise that people ask for letters from their carriers saying that they're covered. If a carrier secretly doesn't want its insureds participating in DE events, then such a request could result in a non-renewal, unnecessarily if the insured never even has an incident. And of course, the insured would never know the real reason why.
Subject: [racing] RE: Driver's Edcuation, 3/20/02
From: Bryan Carlson magisterc@yahoo.com
Derick Cooper derick_cooper@yahoo.com wrote:
<< I think most broad based carriers have wised up quite a bit to the real risks of DE. I looked into the coverage possibilities recently and the general attitude has changed quite a bit (correlates roughly with the increase in DE participation) over the last couple of years. >>
<< We have all heard stories about how insurers reluctantly paid DE-related claims because they weren't specifically "competitive" events, but insurers are wising up to the risks of on-track, non-racing events. >>
<< I think Courtney's statements are far more accurate than you realize. For example, Traveler's now asks if sports cars are equipped with "racing items." >>
<< Larger broadline carriers have certainly made the mistake in the past of not realizing they were insuring higher-risk DE events without specific premiums for such coverage. They won't continue to do so. >>
<< I think Courtney's statements are far more accurate than you imply. >>
<< If you (the general you) are worried about DE coverage, you better get a letter in writing from your broadline insurer specifically stating you are covered. >>
<< Broadline insurers aren't going to go blindly into the night insuring additional risks without being compensated for that risk. Some may not yet realize they are doing so, but that won't last long either. >>
----------
Todd speaks wisely about what insurers will do and what they can not do or say. For example, in Texas, the policy is prescribed by the state and prohibits "competition". This might allow them to exclude an Auto-x where there is timing and trophies, or TT where the same is in effect, but a DE with NO competition is
not excluded by any of the wording of the policy. If it is not excluded it enters an area of great difficulty in terms of the cost of paying a claim versus the cost of a bad faith lawsuit. At least when I was in insurance we weighed the millions of dollars that courts pay in bad faith versus the few thousand that was on the line in settling a claim very carefully.
Unless you receive an endorsement to your policy, or your policy has language to exclude a DE you have a very good shot at being covered and Todd or some other lawyer would love to help you recover millions if you are denied. Read your policy and consult with a knowledgeable professional about what is or is not covered. I agree with Todd that the original statement is one that is beyond what you might legally want to claim. Hope none of you ever has to worry about a DE related claim.
BTW some insurers have sought to deny coverage for street racers under the competition exception. This is an interesting move. Even if the race is not one that is legal or sanctioned but you are competing it might still be excluded as "competition".
04-20-2005, 01:45 AM
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Subject: [racing] RE: Driver's Edcuation, 3/20/02
From: "Todd Serota/TracQuest" tserota@tracquest.com
Courtney Ford claue@americancollectors.net wrote:
<< I represent American Collectors Insurance located in New Jersey (though we write business nationally). We provide, predominantly, insurance courage for collector vehicles. However, we have developed a program for on-track auto physical damage coverage for owners of high performance vehicles, such as yourself, when involved in Driver's Education events. I have enclosed a press release as well as a link to our website, specifically the Driver's Ed page. I look forward to working with many of you soon! >>
<<< Submission for New Markets >>>
<<< Driver's Education >>>
<<< Auto Physical Damage Coverage >>>
<<< American Collectors Insurance is now offering Auto Physical Damage Coverage for high performance vehicles (e.g., BMWs, Corvettes, Porsches) used on-track in Driver's Education events. Driver's Education events are designed to provide on-track safety and handling instruction to owners of high performance vehicles. Standard auto policies typically exclude on-track coverage. American Collectors' program will pay for damage or loss arising from Driver's Education events; Agreed Value in the event of total loss; replacement parts of like kind and quality and the cost for the use of "expert" repair shops. Trailer transit and storage coverage is included. >>>
<<< Dollars: Minimum written premium $150. Liability coverage is not available. >>>
<<< Carrier: American Bankers Insurance Company of Florida, rated "A" by A.M. Best. >>>
<<< States Available: California, Pennsylvania, Illinois, and Connecticut. >>>
<<< Contact: (800) 360-2277 or visit www.AmericanCollectorsIns.com or
http://www.americancollectorsins.com/driversed.htm >>>
----------
As a promoter of DE events (TracQuest is the name of my organization), I'm very happy to see ACI offering such coverage. However, as a lawyer, I feel the need to point out to you that your press release contains a serious misstatement of fact. It says, "Standard auto policies typically exclude on-track coverage," while in fact the opposite is true. The majority of polices exclude racing and competition events, and preparation for them. DE events don't fall into any of these categories, and thus such policies do cover damage at DE events. In fact, I'm aware of many situations in which cars have been damaged at DE events, and in every one of them, the insurance company paid, usually without a whimper.
Now, don't get me wrong. What you're offering is great, because many people won't want to take the risk of not being covered by their normal auto insurance policies, small as it may be, and they may not want to involve their normal carriers for fear that they will be non-renewed or suffer increased premiums. However, many people will read your press release and buy your insurance because they believe that their auto insurance doesn't cover them on the track. This would be a material misrepresentation upon which your customer relies to his detriment (the cost of the premium) in agreeing to the insurance contract with you. In legal jargon, that's called fraud.
I'm telling you this not to criticize your company, but to help you avoid facing such an allegation. I strongly suggest you take out that language. If you want to make an accurate sales pitch, say that some regular insurance policies might not cover on-track activity, and even if there is coverage, many people don't want to get their auto carriers involved. That would be completely accurate and still persuasive.
Subject: [racing] RE: Personal Liability was.. DE and Insurance, 3/24/02
From: "Walter Fricke" FrickeW@ci.boulder.co.us
Here is how I see the legal risks of DEs, Autoxs, and unless noted, racing:
1) Car damage, yours:
You signed the waiver saying you wouldn't sue anyone, including the other driver. However, if someone was reckless (or grossly negligent, assuming anyone can figure out the difference), you might have a shot at that person. And except for racing, your collision coverage might cover the damage - see the discussion about that recently.
2) Car damage you caused.
The other guy agreed not to sue you. But if you were reckless in causing this, well the waiver may not hold. In addition, if you intentionally caused the damage, your insurance won't cover you. Insurance also won't pay "punitive" or "exemplary" damages should the jury really get mad at you for being reckless.
3) Injury or death to yourself.
Best to have good health and life insurance. Unless someone was reckless, you or your heirs won't get much of anything out of anyone. However, unless it was racing you might get some "no fault" or "personal injury protection" benefits from your own insurance policy, if you live in a state where that is required (or you have it anyway).
4) Injury or death to someone else caused by you. If you were reckless in causing this, you are in trouble. If a DE, your insurance might provide coverage. No punitives, though.
5. Some tracks have a policy that if you bend a guard rail you pay to fix it. Sounds like a hard sell to your insurance company, but if a DE maybe?
6. Don't count on the insurance the track or the event organizer (PCA, SCCA, POC, NASA, whoever) has to help you with anything. This insurance is primarily designed to protect the track (tracks usually have their own insurance, and almost always require that they also be covered by the organizer's insurance), and, in the case of the organizer's insurance, the organization. Not you. I have to qualify that a bit - I understand that PCA club racing insurance may pay some medical bills where participants don't have coverage of their own. You'd have to query the PCA insurance guy if interested.
So best to take care out there - the insurance/legal safety net we are familiar with driving on the highway isn't apt to be there for many types of accidents on the track.
This is just an FYI and not legal advice to anyone. State laws vary, as do their court's views. Really serious personal injury tempts judges to bend the law in favor of the injured person, and sways juries too.
Subject: RE: Driver Education Insurance, 3/9/03
From: "Mike O'Leary" mikeo@cfl.rr.com
Checking with my agent after reviewing the policy resulted in "non-renewal" of my policy for the 968. At the time I had 4 vehicles insured by USAA. Asking got my situation referred to the regional folks who evaluate risk. Although DEs were not exempted by the policy I was told that "DE is the same as racing" and I would not be covered. I said fine and the next time the policy came up for renewal I was told that they would not renew the 968. In Florida, that perfectly OK by the statutes. So now the 968 is insured by another (to remain nameless) agency. Y'all be careful now.
Subject: [racing] Insurance for racing, 5/8/03
From: "Rob Pecori" robpecori@earthlink.net
<< When searching for additional life insurance a few years ago my husband and I both found that companies have a real problem with auto racing and will either decline to cover you or nullify the policy if you die during a race. >>
----------
< Fortunately, I was able to purchase what I needed early, when I wasn't into racing or tracking the car. I did add two policies during the time that I was doing Driver's Ed and was able to secure them at the regular rate with an exemption from coverage at the track. So, I still have my core policies in place should something happen at the track and additional policies in place should something happen elsewhere. >>
----------
I bought a policy last year with surprisingly little difficulty and I have been racing for years. There are companies that don’t think that racing (is) death. My agent found one with rates at or barely above what a non-racer would pay. Get a good agent and have them do some research. While on the subject, I recommend that everyone have the conversation with your loved ones about getting "a call" while you are at the track.
Subject: [racing] Re: Car insurance for DE, 10/28/03
From: "Harleigh Ewell" hewell@comcast.net
USAA declined to renew my policy when they found out that I participated in DE. I did not have any DE-related damage that they knew about and had not filed any claim.
Subject: [racing] Re: Car insurance for DE, 10/30/03
From: Tom Tweed <ttweed@san.rr.com>
ACI has just such a DE only policy. See this link:
http://www.americancollectorsins.com/driversed.htm
Subject: [racing] RE: Liability at DE's, 5/19/04
From: "Todd Serota" tserota@adelphia.net
Jason Holland jason.holland@pobox.com wrote:
<< In PCA DE or BMW or whatever club there is, what is the situation as you understand it if there is car to car contact in the DE? Is it a "you break you bought it" scenario? Is there no fault like at a Race? >>
<< If there is liability who determines who was at fault in car to car incidents? >>
----------
I've read all of the posts to date in this thread and rather than respond to each of them, I think it's easier simply to post a general response here. A number of people had things right and a number of people had things wrong. Hopefully this will clarify things.
Generally speaking, there is a lot of confusion about the interaction between 3 things: insurance that the event organizer purchases, individuals' car insurance and the waiver. Let's start with the insurance purchased by the event organizer. First, and very important to understand, it only covers third party liability, not damage to your own car (like your auto policy). Second, everyone who is at the track is covered - the track, the promoter, workers, instructors, participants, spectators, etc. So, if your wife runs someone over in the pits and get sued, the promoter's insurance policy will cover your wife.
Now on to personal auto policies. They operate at the track just as they do on the street, subject to exclusions that the carrier inserts into the policy. As mentioned in another post, Allstate is about the only carrier that excludes ALL activity at a track. The vast majority of other policies only exclude competition and racing and preparation for same.
Finally we get to the waiver. The waiver that we all sign affects both types of policies and waives the right to sue anyone and everyone having anything to do with the event (try reading it some time :-)), not just the event promoter and the track. In I believe all states, though, only ordinary negligence can be waived; gross negligence and intentional conduct can not be waived.
So how does this all work? Let's take Jason's original example - car to car contact. Driver A sues driver B for causing the contact. B can tender the claim for defense to his auto carrier, to the promoter's carrier or both. In both cases, though, each insurer can assert the waiver as a defense because suits like this must be against the insured (Driver B), not the insurance company, and Driver A specifically waived the right to sue Driver B.
Ok. So let's say Driver A realizes that it's pointless to sue and both drivers decide they want their cars fixed by an insurance company. The only option is for each of them to make a claim with his own carrier. Let's assume each carrier pays. Normally Driver A's carrier would have the right to go after Driver B for indemnification of what the carrier paid to fix Driver A's (its own insured's) car (this is called subrogation), but here's where the waiver comes in to play once again. Driver A's insurer "stands in his shoes" so to speak - gets to assert rights that Driver A has against Driver B. The problem for the insurer is that Driver A waived all of his rights against Driver B (for all but gross negligence an intentional conduct), so the insure would lose just as Driver A would lose if he sued Driver B directly.
Finally, let's get to what happened at the event Jason attended. First, I'm with the others in that I've never heard of anyone trying to institute such a rule. Second, for the most part, parties can contract to do just about anything they want, but in this case it would be very complicated if anyone tried to enforce the rule that the club promulgated. The reason: if Jason hits someone and the person sues him asserting the "agreement" that was made at the drivers meeting (by participating in the event each driver agreed to the condition), how does that square with the waiver? If Jason tendered the claim to his insurer, the insurer is [rightfully] going to assert the waiver. Could Jason undo the waiver simply by hearing that at the meeting and continuing to participate in the event? Unlikely. However, the club could certainly say that aside from any actual legal rights those are the rules of the club, and if the at fault party doesn't pay up, he'll never run with the group again.
This situation is to be distinguished from my rule at TracQuest events that if an instructor drives a student's car and breaks it (where the instructor is at fault), he's paying to fix it. The waiver could still be asserted (if it ever came to that, which I would do my best to prevent), but it's likely that this type of conduct would be considered gross negligence and thus the waiver would be inapposite.
All of this said, I have instructors who, understanding my rule, don't drive other peoples' cars because they don't want to be financially responsible for them, which is perfectly acceptable. Using the same reasoning in Jason's situation, what George said is what I think many would do – not accept that responsibility and go home.
Subject: [racing] Re: Life Insurance, 12/11/04
From: "Russ Hildebrand" russellh911@comcast.net
I went through Term.com and ended up with West Coast Life Insurance. The impact of the motor racing supplement was pretty small as I recall, about $150 per year extra.
From: "Richard Betterley" rbetterley@betterley.com
Subject: [racing] Re: Insurance, 12/13/04
One of the tricks for the difficult to insure that need life and disability insurance is to load up on the offers from associations that offer coverage as a part of your membership, and then offers additional limits at additional premium (such as AAA). Also, offers to insure your mortgage and credit cards in the event of your death and/or disability can be a good source of insurance.
The reason why is that they typically do not require you to qualify with the underwriting standards required of the 'best' (cheapest) policies. So, they can be more expensive (but not always), but if you need life insurance and can't get it elsewhere, these can be good sources.
As always, read the fine print, I am speaking broadly here. No guarantees implied, and they may have racing and/or pre-existing conditions excluded. And, one reason this type of insurance is popular with the offering companies is that the beneficiaries rarely know about the coverage, and therefore often don't submit a claim. Nice business, huh?
Subject: [racing] Re: Life Insurance, 12/14/04
From: "Dave" dave@rennlist.net
Michael Branning wrote:
<< I'm about to apply for some 20-year term life insurance. Has anyone here recently gone through this and can provide 1) a racer friendly company (not agent) recommendation and/or 2) a write-up about PCA club racing that could be used as part of the application process? I don't want to deny that I race and risk a denied claim if I perished in a crash. >>
----------
Recent research into this issue confirms that term life insurance is available with little or no extra charge given the right circumstances. For instance: given a race schedule of 6-8 races per season with a top speed of about 150mph, running a 6 cylinder engine at approximately 300hp, Banner Life and United of Omaha are good bets for "standard" issue. The key is to do business with a good agent who does a LOT of business with their respective companies. Such an agent has credibility with the underwriter and can sometimes influence the outcome of a questionable (for lack of information) situation. You can reply to me offline for the name of my source if you are interested.
Also keep in mind that life insurance policies (with few exceptions) have a 2 year incontestable clause, which means that after 2 years the insurance company cannot change the terms of it's contract because of information that was mistakenly omitted.
The insurance company cannot change the terms of it's contract for a hobby that was taken up after the application was signed either!
Subject: [racing] Life Insurance, 12/14/04
From: "Robert Pecori" rpecori@verizon.net
I have a term policy with Fidelity Life and Guaranty. They know that I race and instruct and I don’t pay more and don’t have an exclusion. Get an agent who understands what you do. As you know most people hear "racing" and think you are Evil Knievel or something. My agent happens to be a track junky so he found me the coverage. I don’t know why but it also mattered to them that I was only doing PCA at the time and not SCCA.
Subject: [racing] RE: Driver's Edcuation, 3/20/02
From: "Todd Serota/TracQuest" tserota@tracquest.com
Courtney Ford claue@americancollectors.net wrote:
<< I represent American Collectors Insurance located in New Jersey (though we write business nationally). We provide, predominantly, insurance courage for collector vehicles. However, we have developed a program for on-track auto physical damage coverage for owners of high performance vehicles, such as yourself, when involved in Driver's Education events. I have enclosed a press release as well as a link to our website, specifically the Driver's Ed page. I look forward to working with many of you soon! >>
<<< Submission for New Markets >>>
<<< Driver's Education >>>
<<< Auto Physical Damage Coverage >>>
<<< American Collectors Insurance is now offering Auto Physical Damage Coverage for high performance vehicles (e.g., BMWs, Corvettes, Porsches) used on-track in Driver's Education events. Driver's Education events are designed to provide on-track safety and handling instruction to owners of high performance vehicles. Standard auto policies typically exclude on-track coverage. American Collectors' program will pay for damage or loss arising from Driver's Education events; Agreed Value in the event of total loss; replacement parts of like kind and quality and the cost for the use of "expert" repair shops. Trailer transit and storage coverage is included. >>>
<<< Dollars: Minimum written premium $150. Liability coverage is not available. >>>
<<< Carrier: American Bankers Insurance Company of Florida, rated "A" by A.M. Best. >>>
<<< States Available: California, Pennsylvania, Illinois, and Connecticut. >>>
<<< Contact: (800) 360-2277 or visit www.AmericanCollectorsIns.com or
http://www.americancollectorsins.com/driversed.htm >>>
----------
As a promoter of DE events (TracQuest is the name of my organization), I'm very happy to see ACI offering such coverage. However, as a lawyer, I feel the need to point out to you that your press release contains a serious misstatement of fact. It says, "Standard auto policies typically exclude on-track coverage," while in fact the opposite is true. The majority of polices exclude racing and competition events, and preparation for them. DE events don't fall into any of these categories, and thus such policies do cover damage at DE events. In fact, I'm aware of many situations in which cars have been damaged at DE events, and in every one of them, the insurance company paid, usually without a whimper.
Now, don't get me wrong. What you're offering is great, because many people won't want to take the risk of not being covered by their normal auto insurance policies, small as it may be, and they may not want to involve their normal carriers for fear that they will be non-renewed or suffer increased premiums. However, many people will read your press release and buy your insurance because they believe that their auto insurance doesn't cover them on the track. This would be a material misrepresentation upon which your customer relies to his detriment (the cost of the premium) in agreeing to the insurance contract with you. In legal jargon, that's called fraud.
I'm telling you this not to criticize your company, but to help you avoid facing such an allegation. I strongly suggest you take out that language. If you want to make an accurate sales pitch, say that some regular insurance policies might not cover on-track activity, and even if there is coverage, many people don't want to get their auto carriers involved. That would be completely accurate and still persuasive.
Subject: [racing] RE: Personal Liability was.. DE and Insurance, 3/24/02
From: "Walter Fricke" FrickeW@ci.boulder.co.us
Here is how I see the legal risks of DEs, Autoxs, and unless noted, racing:
1) Car damage, yours:
You signed the waiver saying you wouldn't sue anyone, including the other driver. However, if someone was reckless (or grossly negligent, assuming anyone can figure out the difference), you might have a shot at that person. And except for racing, your collision coverage might cover the damage - see the discussion about that recently.
2) Car damage you caused.
The other guy agreed not to sue you. But if you were reckless in causing this, well the waiver may not hold. In addition, if you intentionally caused the damage, your insurance won't cover you. Insurance also won't pay "punitive" or "exemplary" damages should the jury really get mad at you for being reckless.
3) Injury or death to yourself.
Best to have good health and life insurance. Unless someone was reckless, you or your heirs won't get much of anything out of anyone. However, unless it was racing you might get some "no fault" or "personal injury protection" benefits from your own insurance policy, if you live in a state where that is required (or you have it anyway).
4) Injury or death to someone else caused by you. If you were reckless in causing this, you are in trouble. If a DE, your insurance might provide coverage. No punitives, though.
5. Some tracks have a policy that if you bend a guard rail you pay to fix it. Sounds like a hard sell to your insurance company, but if a DE maybe?
6. Don't count on the insurance the track or the event organizer (PCA, SCCA, POC, NASA, whoever) has to help you with anything. This insurance is primarily designed to protect the track (tracks usually have their own insurance, and almost always require that they also be covered by the organizer's insurance), and, in the case of the organizer's insurance, the organization. Not you. I have to qualify that a bit - I understand that PCA club racing insurance may pay some medical bills where participants don't have coverage of their own. You'd have to query the PCA insurance guy if interested.
So best to take care out there - the insurance/legal safety net we are familiar with driving on the highway isn't apt to be there for many types of accidents on the track.
This is just an FYI and not legal advice to anyone. State laws vary, as do their court's views. Really serious personal injury tempts judges to bend the law in favor of the injured person, and sways juries too.
Subject: RE: Driver Education Insurance, 3/9/03
From: "Mike O'Leary" mikeo@cfl.rr.com
Checking with my agent after reviewing the policy resulted in "non-renewal" of my policy for the 968. At the time I had 4 vehicles insured by USAA. Asking got my situation referred to the regional folks who evaluate risk. Although DEs were not exempted by the policy I was told that "DE is the same as racing" and I would not be covered. I said fine and the next time the policy came up for renewal I was told that they would not renew the 968. In Florida, that perfectly OK by the statutes. So now the 968 is insured by another (to remain nameless) agency. Y'all be careful now.
Subject: [racing] Insurance for racing, 5/8/03
From: "Rob Pecori" robpecori@earthlink.net
<< When searching for additional life insurance a few years ago my husband and I both found that companies have a real problem with auto racing and will either decline to cover you or nullify the policy if you die during a race. >>
----------
< Fortunately, I was able to purchase what I needed early, when I wasn't into racing or tracking the car. I did add two policies during the time that I was doing Driver's Ed and was able to secure them at the regular rate with an exemption from coverage at the track. So, I still have my core policies in place should something happen at the track and additional policies in place should something happen elsewhere. >>
----------
I bought a policy last year with surprisingly little difficulty and I have been racing for years. There are companies that don’t think that racing (is) death. My agent found one with rates at or barely above what a non-racer would pay. Get a good agent and have them do some research. While on the subject, I recommend that everyone have the conversation with your loved ones about getting "a call" while you are at the track.
Subject: [racing] Re: Car insurance for DE, 10/28/03
From: "Harleigh Ewell" hewell@comcast.net
USAA declined to renew my policy when they found out that I participated in DE. I did not have any DE-related damage that they knew about and had not filed any claim.
Subject: [racing] Re: Car insurance for DE, 10/30/03
From: Tom Tweed <ttweed@san.rr.com>
ACI has just such a DE only policy. See this link:
http://www.americancollectorsins.com/driversed.htm
Subject: [racing] RE: Liability at DE's, 5/19/04
From: "Todd Serota" tserota@adelphia.net
Jason Holland jason.holland@pobox.com wrote:
<< In PCA DE or BMW or whatever club there is, what is the situation as you understand it if there is car to car contact in the DE? Is it a "you break you bought it" scenario? Is there no fault like at a Race? >>
<< If there is liability who determines who was at fault in car to car incidents? >>
----------
I've read all of the posts to date in this thread and rather than respond to each of them, I think it's easier simply to post a general response here. A number of people had things right and a number of people had things wrong. Hopefully this will clarify things.
Generally speaking, there is a lot of confusion about the interaction between 3 things: insurance that the event organizer purchases, individuals' car insurance and the waiver. Let's start with the insurance purchased by the event organizer. First, and very important to understand, it only covers third party liability, not damage to your own car (like your auto policy). Second, everyone who is at the track is covered - the track, the promoter, workers, instructors, participants, spectators, etc. So, if your wife runs someone over in the pits and get sued, the promoter's insurance policy will cover your wife.
Now on to personal auto policies. They operate at the track just as they do on the street, subject to exclusions that the carrier inserts into the policy. As mentioned in another post, Allstate is about the only carrier that excludes ALL activity at a track. The vast majority of other policies only exclude competition and racing and preparation for same.
Finally we get to the waiver. The waiver that we all sign affects both types of policies and waives the right to sue anyone and everyone having anything to do with the event (try reading it some time :-)), not just the event promoter and the track. In I believe all states, though, only ordinary negligence can be waived; gross negligence and intentional conduct can not be waived.
So how does this all work? Let's take Jason's original example - car to car contact. Driver A sues driver B for causing the contact. B can tender the claim for defense to his auto carrier, to the promoter's carrier or both. In both cases, though, each insurer can assert the waiver as a defense because suits like this must be against the insured (Driver B), not the insurance company, and Driver A specifically waived the right to sue Driver B.
Ok. So let's say Driver A realizes that it's pointless to sue and both drivers decide they want their cars fixed by an insurance company. The only option is for each of them to make a claim with his own carrier. Let's assume each carrier pays. Normally Driver A's carrier would have the right to go after Driver B for indemnification of what the carrier paid to fix Driver A's (its own insured's) car (this is called subrogation), but here's where the waiver comes in to play once again. Driver A's insurer "stands in his shoes" so to speak - gets to assert rights that Driver A has against Driver B. The problem for the insurer is that Driver A waived all of his rights against Driver B (for all but gross negligence an intentional conduct), so the insure would lose just as Driver A would lose if he sued Driver B directly.
Finally, let's get to what happened at the event Jason attended. First, I'm with the others in that I've never heard of anyone trying to institute such a rule. Second, for the most part, parties can contract to do just about anything they want, but in this case it would be very complicated if anyone tried to enforce the rule that the club promulgated. The reason: if Jason hits someone and the person sues him asserting the "agreement" that was made at the drivers meeting (by participating in the event each driver agreed to the condition), how does that square with the waiver? If Jason tendered the claim to his insurer, the insurer is [rightfully] going to assert the waiver. Could Jason undo the waiver simply by hearing that at the meeting and continuing to participate in the event? Unlikely. However, the club could certainly say that aside from any actual legal rights those are the rules of the club, and if the at fault party doesn't pay up, he'll never run with the group again.
This situation is to be distinguished from my rule at TracQuest events that if an instructor drives a student's car and breaks it (where the instructor is at fault), he's paying to fix it. The waiver could still be asserted (if it ever came to that, which I would do my best to prevent), but it's likely that this type of conduct would be considered gross negligence and thus the waiver would be inapposite.
All of this said, I have instructors who, understanding my rule, don't drive other peoples' cars because they don't want to be financially responsible for them, which is perfectly acceptable. Using the same reasoning in Jason's situation, what George said is what I think many would do – not accept that responsibility and go home.
Subject: [racing] Re: Life Insurance, 12/11/04
From: "Russ Hildebrand" russellh911@comcast.net
I went through Term.com and ended up with West Coast Life Insurance. The impact of the motor racing supplement was pretty small as I recall, about $150 per year extra.
From: "Richard Betterley" rbetterley@betterley.com
Subject: [racing] Re: Insurance, 12/13/04
One of the tricks for the difficult to insure that need life and disability insurance is to load up on the offers from associations that offer coverage as a part of your membership, and then offers additional limits at additional premium (such as AAA). Also, offers to insure your mortgage and credit cards in the event of your death and/or disability can be a good source of insurance.
The reason why is that they typically do not require you to qualify with the underwriting standards required of the 'best' (cheapest) policies. So, they can be more expensive (but not always), but if you need life insurance and can't get it elsewhere, these can be good sources.
As always, read the fine print, I am speaking broadly here. No guarantees implied, and they may have racing and/or pre-existing conditions excluded. And, one reason this type of insurance is popular with the offering companies is that the beneficiaries rarely know about the coverage, and therefore often don't submit a claim. Nice business, huh?
Subject: [racing] Re: Life Insurance, 12/14/04
From: "Dave" dave@rennlist.net
Michael Branning wrote:
<< I'm about to apply for some 20-year term life insurance. Has anyone here recently gone through this and can provide 1) a racer friendly company (not agent) recommendation and/or 2) a write-up about PCA club racing that could be used as part of the application process? I don't want to deny that I race and risk a denied claim if I perished in a crash. >>
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Recent research into this issue confirms that term life insurance is available with little or no extra charge given the right circumstances. For instance: given a race schedule of 6-8 races per season with a top speed of about 150mph, running a 6 cylinder engine at approximately 300hp, Banner Life and United of Omaha are good bets for "standard" issue. The key is to do business with a good agent who does a LOT of business with their respective companies. Such an agent has credibility with the underwriter and can sometimes influence the outcome of a questionable (for lack of information) situation. You can reply to me offline for the name of my source if you are interested.
Also keep in mind that life insurance policies (with few exceptions) have a 2 year incontestable clause, which means that after 2 years the insurance company cannot change the terms of it's contract because of information that was mistakenly omitted.
The insurance company cannot change the terms of it's contract for a hobby that was taken up after the application was signed either!
Subject: [racing] Life Insurance, 12/14/04
From: "Robert Pecori" rpecori@verizon.net
I have a term policy with Fidelity Life and Guaranty. They know that I race and instruct and I don’t pay more and don’t have an exclusion. Get an agent who understands what you do. As you know most people hear "racing" and think you are Evil Knievel or something. My agent happens to be a track junky so he found me the coverage. I don’t know why but it also mattered to them that I was only doing PCA at the time and not SCCA.
04-20-2005, 02:03 PM
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Good read, thanks for posting that. The key word is "excluded" & "competitive" in any policy. Look at your own policy like I did and then get on the phone with the agent and CS representative. Getting it in writing is another issue b/c it seals the deal for the driver to do the DE. If a claim is filed after permission is given the author of the approval letter is in heap big trouble. When it comes to DE the underwriters can make this area grey b/c they know it will raise doubt in the insured owners mind.
Good luck getting a letter with the specific langauge your looking for.
Good luck getting a letter with the specific langauge your looking for.
