951 Project by DanG = 2.7L MID + Megasquirt + Garrett GT-R
07-28-2005, 03:36 AM
#16
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
I'm the king of redundancy. This stuff is written somewhere else in this thread probably three times. But I just wrote it up for another forum. It ties a bunch of stuff together, so I'm slapping it in here...
1) The front brakes are indeed off a 993 TT. "Big Reds". Even though they're yellow. The PO painted right over the red. There's a chip out of the pass. side caliper, it goes yellow->red->metal. I've also confirmed a match with the photo of my calipers to the real deal.
Next, my engine shop has found a host of "hidden" treats on the car during disassembly...
2) My '86 has been fitted with the later model "2 piece" crossover tube. This makes a bunch of repair jobs about 12x easier, as you have a buttload less things to remove to get that pipe off.
3) A Tial wastegate is sitting on that upgraded crossover tube already. I'll have to find out how big it is. 35mm is considered "adequate", 38mm is "enough".
4) The head is indeed o-ringed, which can help keep the HG from blowing.
5) The head has been ported and polished, I dunno how extreme. Hopefully by someone skilled and not a hack like me with a die grinder in the backyard.
6) The head is packed full of upgraded valvesprings. So I should be able to safely rev it up a little higher. Nice to know I've got a little more wiggle room up there.
The engine failure has been diagnosed as a spun #2 rod bearing at the moment. The engine was supposed to reach the stand by COB today, they'll have the pan off and things apart by mid day tomorrow for a full report. I'm really crossing my fingers that the cylinder walls will be ok. If the walls are fine, it will be ready to go back together pretty friggin soon.
Some quick notes on the infamous 944 #2 rod bearing failure
Do some sustained high-g cornering, oil gathers on one side of the pan, pickup sucks air, good bye #2 bearing. I've read and heard a number of theories as to why is specifically #2, but regardless of that outcome, I'm going to work on preventing the cause.
First, a little discussion on the failure mode:
https://rennlist.com/forums/racing-and-drivers-education-forum/121038-944-rod-bearing-failure-cure.html
https://rennlist.com/forums/924-931-944-951-968-forum/191927-wise-to-track-car-without-extra-baffle.html
Next, the most comon methods of prevention (I'm doing at least the first 5 of these, probably add the 6th if I get too nervous):
1) Installing oil pan baffle(s) to keep the oil from sloshing too far away from the pickup
2) Weld a "collar" around the pickup to encourage it to draw the oil "up" from the bottom of the pans, rather than sucking air at the edges.
3) Install a crank scraper to strip oil from the crank, actually helping the oil situation, and making a few hp at the same time! Repeated tests show 3-5% "gain" (or more accurately, "reduced loss") in hp/tq. I'll take that all day long, especially for a whopping $69.95 shipped!
4) "Perp drill" the #2 and #3 rod bearing journals in the crank. "Perp" rather than cross, as the hole is drilled perpendicular to the original, facing radially outward. Centripital force (or lack thereof) helps draw the oil out into the bearing. Its done to #2 and #3 only, as its been proven #1 and #4 are almost never starved for oil, while #2 always goes first, and #3 is usually following about 50% behind it.
5) Calico CT-1 coated main and rod bearings. Dry film lubricant protects bearing on startup and low pressure conditions. Drastically improved bearing life.
6) Accusump - pressurized oil resevoir for "low pressure events". Pump pickup starts sucking air? Accusump pumps upto 3 quarts in at proper pressure, then instantly refils itself once the pickup is sucking oil again. Also, can be installed w/ an electronic valve that is linked to the ignition. Turn the key off, the sump stays charged w/ full oil pressure. Put the key in and turn to run, the sump pre-oils everything automagically! [red bull voice] BRILLIANT! [/red bull voice]
So as you can see, I'm going all out on this puppy. I want to take this thing through corners at full boost without any fears of massive engine trauma. I'd much rather blow an engine w/ boost than with something as simple as running it low on oil. Of course, I'm not going to try and blow it with boost either.
1) The front brakes are indeed off a 993 TT. "Big Reds". Even though they're yellow. The PO painted right over the red. There's a chip out of the pass. side caliper, it goes yellow->red->metal. I've also confirmed a match with the photo of my calipers to the real deal.
Next, my engine shop has found a host of "hidden" treats on the car during disassembly...
2) My '86 has been fitted with the later model "2 piece" crossover tube. This makes a bunch of repair jobs about 12x easier, as you have a buttload less things to remove to get that pipe off.
3) A Tial wastegate is sitting on that upgraded crossover tube already. I'll have to find out how big it is. 35mm is considered "adequate", 38mm is "enough".
4) The head is indeed o-ringed, which can help keep the HG from blowing.
5) The head has been ported and polished, I dunno how extreme. Hopefully by someone skilled and not a hack like me with a die grinder in the backyard.
6) The head is packed full of upgraded valvesprings. So I should be able to safely rev it up a little higher. Nice to know I've got a little more wiggle room up there.
The engine failure has been diagnosed as a spun #2 rod bearing at the moment. The engine was supposed to reach the stand by COB today, they'll have the pan off and things apart by mid day tomorrow for a full report. I'm really crossing my fingers that the cylinder walls will be ok. If the walls are fine, it will be ready to go back together pretty friggin soon.
Some quick notes on the infamous 944 #2 rod bearing failure
Do some sustained high-g cornering, oil gathers on one side of the pan, pickup sucks air, good bye #2 bearing. I've read and heard a number of theories as to why is specifically #2, but regardless of that outcome, I'm going to work on preventing the cause.
First, a little discussion on the failure mode:
https://rennlist.com/forums/racing-and-drivers-education-forum/121038-944-rod-bearing-failure-cure.html
https://rennlist.com/forums/924-931-944-951-968-forum/191927-wise-to-track-car-without-extra-baffle.html
Next, the most comon methods of prevention (I'm doing at least the first 5 of these, probably add the 6th if I get too nervous):
1) Installing oil pan baffle(s) to keep the oil from sloshing too far away from the pickup
2) Weld a "collar" around the pickup to encourage it to draw the oil "up" from the bottom of the pans, rather than sucking air at the edges.
3) Install a crank scraper to strip oil from the crank, actually helping the oil situation, and making a few hp at the same time! Repeated tests show 3-5% "gain" (or more accurately, "reduced loss") in hp/tq. I'll take that all day long, especially for a whopping $69.95 shipped!
4) "Perp drill" the #2 and #3 rod bearing journals in the crank. "Perp" rather than cross, as the hole is drilled perpendicular to the original, facing radially outward. Centripital force (or lack thereof) helps draw the oil out into the bearing. Its done to #2 and #3 only, as its been proven #1 and #4 are almost never starved for oil, while #2 always goes first, and #3 is usually following about 50% behind it.
5) Calico CT-1 coated main and rod bearings. Dry film lubricant protects bearing on startup and low pressure conditions. Drastically improved bearing life.
6) Accusump - pressurized oil resevoir for "low pressure events". Pump pickup starts sucking air? Accusump pumps upto 3 quarts in at proper pressure, then instantly refils itself once the pickup is sucking oil again. Also, can be installed w/ an electronic valve that is linked to the ignition. Turn the key off, the sump stays charged w/ full oil pressure. Put the key in and turn to run, the sump pre-oils everything automagically! [red bull voice] BRILLIANT! [/red bull voice]
So as you can see, I'm going all out on this puppy. I want to take this thing through corners at full boost without any fears of massive engine trauma. I'd much rather blow an engine w/ boost than with something as simple as running it low on oil. Of course, I'm not going to try and blow it with boost either.
08-01-2005, 06:06 PM
#18
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Got the bad news from the shop today. #2 spun badly enough to chew out the crank, rod, and score the cylinder. So the rebuild is going to be a bit more expensive now.
My mechanic has a shop out in Harrisburg PA (crate->ship->machine work->crate->ship) that does alumisil reconditioning. I don't want to know what it costs. (what should it cost?) I'll have to pay for a used crank and rod from my mechanic, although he strips wrecked 951s down regularly, so it shouldn't be too bad.
I'm just bummed that it was more than just a toasted bearing and all the rest was still in good shape. Oh well, that was the risk I took buying a car with a blown engine sight unseen. Still, tack on an extra grand or two to my initial guess at the costs of the rebuild and I'll still be well under $10k total price for the car. That makes me happy.
My mechanic has a shop out in Harrisburg PA (crate->ship->machine work->crate->ship) that does alumisil reconditioning. I don't want to know what it costs. (what should it cost?) I'll have to pay for a used crank and rod from my mechanic, although he strips wrecked 951s down regularly, so it shouldn't be too bad.
I'm just bummed that it was more than just a toasted bearing and all the rest was still in good shape. Oh well, that was the risk I took buying a car with a blown engine sight unseen. Still, tack on an extra grand or two to my initial guess at the costs of the rebuild and I'll still be well under $10k total price for the car. That makes me happy.
08-02-2005, 04:21 PM
#19
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Ok, more bad news. #2 bore is bad enough that it would have to go to an oversize piston. I'm faced with a few high $ options at this point (all of them would still require a few hundred in new bearings/rings/seals):
1) bore out my block, re-alumisil it, buy a set of 4 oversize pistons - cost $2000?
2) buy good low mileage short block from my mechanic for about $1600.
3) buy a good low mileage short block from someone on here for much less? It'd have to be significantly less as my mechanic's block wouldn't have any unpleasant "suprises".
4) MID sleeves from Chris White - $3000?
What about those "cheap" oversize pistons that were talked about a while back? Anyone have any luck with those yet?
The devil in me wants to give Chris W a call, but going the "good used short block" route would be about half the price. Still I'd love to build up a big bore/stroker motor!
1) bore out my block, re-alumisil it, buy a set of 4 oversize pistons - cost $2000?
2) buy good low mileage short block from my mechanic for about $1600.
3) buy a good low mileage short block from someone on here for much less? It'd have to be significantly less as my mechanic's block wouldn't have any unpleasant "suprises".
4) MID sleeves from Chris White - $3000?
What about those "cheap" oversize pistons that were talked about a while back? Anyone have any luck with those yet?
The devil in me wants to give Chris W a call, but going the "good used short block" route would be about half the price. Still I'd love to build up a big bore/stroker motor!
08-02-2005, 05:44 PM
#23
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Yeah, that devil on my shoulder has a name. Its initials are C. W.
Chris, thanks for talking with me. $2750 is outstanding for the value I'd get out of it. I need to get a handle on my other rebuild costs first, but so far I'm rooting for MID sleeves if I can afford it.
I've been reading through some past threads on the options for those of us with "bad blocks"...
Chris White's MID Sleeves
Zero10's "Replacement Block" thread
theedge's "Cyl damage" thread
At this point it makes sense to rule out doing any bore/alumisil/oversize piston work to my existing block. I won't get any increased reliability over a good condition used block, yet its more expensive. So I'm really just looking at approx $1600 for a used short block (anyone have a good condition, ready to be rebuilt short or BARE block out there in parts car land?)
Or I can spend an extra $1000 or so for the MID sleeves. Choice of taking the cheap way out with a bit of nervousness about how long it will last, or doing it the "right way" for an extra grand now, but having full confidence in the reliability and future servicability of the engine. Plus I get to have a 2.7L big bore, and be cooler than everyone else here except a few of you!
Chris, the one thing I forgot to mention is my head is good, has good parts, is ported, but it has an o-ring. Would that foil my plans to go out to the 104mm bore? Could I just remove the ring and weld/resurface the head? I guess I could swap on a stock head, or stick to stock bore size, but wheres the fun in that.
Chris, thanks for talking with me. $2750 is outstanding for the value I'd get out of it. I need to get a handle on my other rebuild costs first, but so far I'm rooting for MID sleeves if I can afford it.
I've been reading through some past threads on the options for those of us with "bad blocks"...
Chris White's MID Sleeves
Zero10's "Replacement Block" thread
theedge's "Cyl damage" thread
At this point it makes sense to rule out doing any bore/alumisil/oversize piston work to my existing block. I won't get any increased reliability over a good condition used block, yet its more expensive. So I'm really just looking at approx $1600 for a used short block (anyone have a good condition, ready to be rebuilt short or BARE block out there in parts car land?)
Or I can spend an extra $1000 or so for the MID sleeves. Choice of taking the cheap way out with a bit of nervousness about how long it will last, or doing it the "right way" for an extra grand now, but having full confidence in the reliability and future servicability of the engine. Plus I get to have a 2.7L big bore, and be cooler than everyone else here except a few of you!
Chris, the one thing I forgot to mention is my head is good, has good parts, is ported, but it has an o-ring. Would that foil my plans to go out to the 104mm bore? Could I just remove the ring and weld/resurface the head? I guess I could swap on a stock head, or stick to stock bore size, but wheres the fun in that.
08-02-2005, 05:46 PM
#24
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Congrats. . . And my condolences. As a soon-to-be former 951 owner myself I can say with a certainty that the bleeding will start soon, last forever, and be bad.
Enjoy the car though.
Enjoy the car though.
08-02-2005, 06:20 PM
#25
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
I'm hemmoraging. I got the quote from my mechanic. Its big. $6500 to turn the key with that used engine, rebuilt.
Exploring options 3) and 4) from today's first post in much greater detail.
I can't rebuild a motor myself, but I can reinstall one. I'd much rather SAVE a couple thousand by getting a fully built motor from Chris than continuing down the current path with the mechanic.
I'm already $1660 in debt to the shop right now for the diagnosis and disassembly. I think I'll be towing it away in the current state of disrepair, take the rest of the job on myself.
Exploring options 3) and 4) from today's first post in much greater detail.
I can't rebuild a motor myself, but I can reinstall one. I'd much rather SAVE a couple thousand by getting a fully built motor from Chris than continuing down the current path with the mechanic.
I'm already $1660 in debt to the shop right now for the diagnosis and disassembly. I think I'll be towing it away in the current state of disrepair, take the rest of the job on myself.
08-02-2005, 07:46 PM
#26
Drifting
Man, your car looks identical to Pablo Malmuzian's(Contributing Editor, European Car Magazine)951. Looks great though....
Zach
1986 951 Ready for the "treatment"(Vitesse Stage II)
1986 Audi Sport Quattro(Needs hella parts)
2001 BMW X5 4.4i(Needs nothing)
Zach
1986 951 Ready for the "treatment"(Vitesse Stage II)
1986 Audi Sport Quattro(Needs hella parts)
2001 BMW X5 4.4i(Needs nothing)
08-02-2005, 07:52 PM
#27
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Lifetime Rennlist
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Lifetime Rennlist
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Have Chris build you the long block. With Rennlist, Clarks-Garage, and the manuals (I can send you the 951 man as a zip file) You can do the rest. I would say that once you get everything done from Chris, It won't be much cheaper, but it will be awesome
Time to call 944Enhancement.
Time to call 944Enhancement.
08-03-2005, 10:46 AM
#28
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Dilberto- yeah, I've been following the Project 951, actually subscribed to EuroCar because of it (and their bimmer project cars). I guess mine is pretty similar to his car, I hadn't thought of that.
Ehall- I'm confident I could install the motor too. I better be, I've got one to install (on my NA) before I'd even have room for this one...
But it should make for good practice, right?
If I can swing a good used short block for ~$1000 then I'll be in good shape. Shipping is obviously a concern, as going much more than $300 would make the $1600 78k mile short block my mechanic has worth looking into. So in my mind, unless I can get a short block around $1000, then a fully built ChrisW sleeved "big bore" for $3500 (ready to drop in) is the way to go.
Ehall- I'm confident I could install the motor too. I better be, I've got one to install (on my NA) before I'd even have room for this one...
But it should make for good practice, right?
If I can swing a good used short block for ~$1000 then I'll be in good shape. Shipping is obviously a concern, as going much more than $300 would make the $1600 78k mile short block my mechanic has worth looking into. So in my mind, unless I can get a short block around $1000, then a fully built ChrisW sleeved "big bore" for $3500 (ready to drop in) is the way to go.
08-03-2005, 03:14 PM
#29
Drifting
DanG,
Call my buddy Sean Steele, at Autobahn Dismantling in San Diego (619)444-2290 or http://www.autobahnparts.com and see if they have used engines starting at $850. I got a great 951 motor from him a few years ago for $1200.
Zach
1986 951(Needs make over, Vitesse Stage II)
1986 Audi Sport Quattro(Needs mucho parts)
2001 BMW X5 4.4i(Needs nothing)
Call my buddy Sean Steele, at Autobahn Dismantling in San Diego (619)444-2290 or http://www.autobahnparts.com and see if they have used engines starting at $850. I got a great 951 motor from him a few years ago for $1200.
Zach
1986 951(Needs make over, Vitesse Stage II)
1986 Audi Sport Quattro(Needs mucho parts)
2001 BMW X5 4.4i(Needs nothing)
08-03-2005, 03:40 PM
#30
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
I was talking to devgriff about his $950 engine (about $1300 after shipping) earlier today, but I decided against it.
I think I'm going to jump off the deep end...
2.7L MID-sleeved rebuild from 944 Enhancement
The costs are considerably more than dropping in a non-rebuilt used motor, but almost inline with having that used motor rebuilt before dropping it in. So rather than cheap out and pray that a non-rebuilt motor holds together, I'll drop the cash on getting a motor rebuilt the "right" way, and hopefully get many years and miles out of it without any major issues. And if I do have some issues, the costs of repair should be significantly less than a stock motor.
I'm not worried about meeting any class requirements, I can't afford to actually go racing with the car. So it will be strictly a track-day lapdog. Hopefully hold together through most anything I throw at it. I'll take it to autoxes once or twice for giggles, probably loose to a couple NAs. Then drive it on the street when I'm in the mood.
I think the sleeved rebuild will have the reliability I'm after. I'll stick to a healthy regimen of oil and rod bearing changes, and hopefully be boosting for 100k miles or more.
I think I'm going to jump off the deep end...
2.7L MID-sleeved rebuild from 944 Enhancement
The costs are considerably more than dropping in a non-rebuilt used motor, but almost inline with having that used motor rebuilt before dropping it in. So rather than cheap out and pray that a non-rebuilt motor holds together, I'll drop the cash on getting a motor rebuilt the "right" way, and hopefully get many years and miles out of it without any major issues. And if I do have some issues, the costs of repair should be significantly less than a stock motor.
I'm not worried about meeting any class requirements, I can't afford to actually go racing with the car. So it will be strictly a track-day lapdog. Hopefully hold together through most anything I throw at it. I'll take it to autoxes once or twice for giggles, probably loose to a couple NAs. Then drive it on the street when I'm in the mood.
I think the sleeved rebuild will have the reliability I'm after. I'll stick to a healthy regimen of oil and rod bearing changes, and hopefully be boosting for 100k miles or more.