Is a Y belt "legal" for DE?
10-09-2006, 10:53 PM
#1
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Is a Y belt "legal" for DE?
Before I start cutting holes in my new seats, is this legal for DE?
From Brey Kruse http://www.bkauto.com/faq/corvette.html
From Brey Kruse http://www.bkauto.com/faq/corvette.html
Why doesn't Brey-Krause make anti-submarine strap mounts for use with all factory seats?
For an anti-sub belt to work properly it has to be located close to the driver's crotch. Using a standard anti-sub belt mount creates a problem with most factory seats because they usually interfere with the position of the strap. Other options are available such as using aftermarket seats designed for use with an anti-sub belt. Some drivers choose to use a Y belt attached to the inside and outside lap belt mounts and sit on the belt. For recreational driving this type of installation works well with factory seats but it is no substitute for a race seat and traditional installation. Use of aftermarket seat belts without an anti-sub strap is not recommended.
For an anti-sub belt to work properly it has to be located close to the driver's crotch. Using a standard anti-sub belt mount creates a problem with most factory seats because they usually interfere with the position of the strap. Other options are available such as using aftermarket seats designed for use with an anti-sub belt. Some drivers choose to use a Y belt attached to the inside and outside lap belt mounts and sit on the belt. For recreational driving this type of installation works well with factory seats but it is no substitute for a race seat and traditional installation. Use of aftermarket seat belts without an anti-sub strap is not recommended.
10-10-2006, 08:19 AM
#2
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I think that the PCA National standard is or will soon be that if harnesses are used they have to be used with a seat that has holes where required.
10-10-2006, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by kurt M
I think that the PCA National standard is or will soon be that if harnesses are used they have to be used with a seat that has holes where required.
10-10-2006, 09:31 AM
#4
Race Car
would / will this be, illegal? IS IT UNSAFE?
( is it time to look for new seats?)
(harness straps thru headrest)
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h1...f/P9020011.jpg
(as I remember the 3 pt belts attched to the seat itself, and they were sold)
( is it time to look for new seats?)
(harness straps thru headrest)
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h1...f/P9020011.jpg
(as I remember the 3 pt belts attched to the seat itself, and they were sold)
10-10-2006, 09:35 AM
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When I first got my car, it was setup like that and didn't find it confortable for the crotch. I quickly changed for real seats. The problem is also for the shoulder belts and if a crash would occur, the belts would slip and hurt you more then save you.
I am thinking that if you are going to use belts, you will need a rollbar and if you're installing belts and a rollbar, might as well go all the way and complete the setup and install a seat too.
I am thinking that if you are going to use belts, you will need a rollbar and if you're installing belts and a rollbar, might as well go all the way and complete the setup and install a seat too.
10-10-2006, 09:45 AM
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i have seats with the holes in the headrest for shoulder/4 pt harness. dont have the hole for the sub belt.
guess i am going to have to rummage through my parents basement and find their electric knife from thanksgivings past and cut some foam from the bottom of the seat.
a local shop wants a mere $75 to cut the hole and $225 to cut the hole and sew in some new vinyl - per seat!
guess i am going to have to rummage through my parents basement and find their electric knife from thanksgivings past and cut some foam from the bottom of the seat.
a local shop wants a mere $75 to cut the hole and $225 to cut the hole and sew in some new vinyl - per seat!
10-10-2006, 10:26 AM
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Do you think you would weaken the seat's structure by cutting a hole in it??? Are we talking about about a bucket seat or Recaro type sport reclinable seat???
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10-10-2006, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by CWay27
Do you think you would weaken the seat's structure by cutting a hole in it??? Are we talking about about a bucket seat or Recaro type sport reclinable seat???
10-10-2006, 01:30 PM
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Hey;
BK is correct, sort of. A double sub - "V", not "Y" - will work in a cradle arrangement with a stock seat, but it must be worn very tight to be nearly as effective as a sub properly positioned and run down through a hole in the seat base.
PCA regions have been looking mostly at the shoulder straps. They should not rightly refuse use of the cradle type sub arrangements if you have no seat base hole because they do work and are effective (just not comfortable). They may, however, refuse to allow any other tpye of sub arrangement that doesn't go through the seat base.
I'd cut the seat and mount it below. Have it pretty'd up when you know you've got it right.
BK is correct, sort of. A double sub - "V", not "Y" - will work in a cradle arrangement with a stock seat, but it must be worn very tight to be nearly as effective as a sub properly positioned and run down through a hole in the seat base.
PCA regions have been looking mostly at the shoulder straps. They should not rightly refuse use of the cradle type sub arrangements if you have no seat base hole because they do work and are effective (just not comfortable). They may, however, refuse to allow any other tpye of sub arrangement that doesn't go through the seat base.
I'd cut the seat and mount it below. Have it pretty'd up when you know you've got it right.
10-10-2006, 01:58 PM
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John, before i research what a double sub V is,
Question:
If i cut the hole in the seat and mount the sub strap.... Where do i mount it?
My nieghbor is an airplane mechanic/machinist/can fabricate anything guy.
he looked at the car yesterday and proposed making a piece of metal (about 1/4" thick) in the shape of a V. mounting the two points of the V to the two rear most seat holes (not being used since rails use four of the bolts) and then bolting the belt to the bottom of the V.
His theory is if in an accident I will be going forward and if the belt is mounted a little bit behind my nads the force will be in the bolt pulling forward instead of upward as would be the case if mounted in front of the nads. also, he thinks mounting to the two seat holes gives possible extra protection if it pulls at an angle, and the seat holes are factory reinforced as opposed to a hole in the floor which is just a bolt through a sheet of tin
what is your take on this?
Is this the double sub belt you are talking about? is it legal for DE?
http://www.speedwaremotorsports.com/specials/index.asp
Question:
If i cut the hole in the seat and mount the sub strap.... Where do i mount it?
My nieghbor is an airplane mechanic/machinist/can fabricate anything guy.
he looked at the car yesterday and proposed making a piece of metal (about 1/4" thick) in the shape of a V. mounting the two points of the V to the two rear most seat holes (not being used since rails use four of the bolts) and then bolting the belt to the bottom of the V.
His theory is if in an accident I will be going forward and if the belt is mounted a little bit behind my nads the force will be in the bolt pulling forward instead of upward as would be the case if mounted in front of the nads. also, he thinks mounting to the two seat holes gives possible extra protection if it pulls at an angle, and the seat holes are factory reinforced as opposed to a hole in the floor which is just a bolt through a sheet of tin
what is your take on this?
Is this the double sub belt you are talking about? is it legal for DE?
http://www.speedwaremotorsports.com/specials/index.asp
Last edited by Tom R.; 10-10-2006 at 02:29 PM.
10-10-2006, 08:21 PM
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Hey Tom;
That is a "T" sub. Short of getting a Schroth Hybrid (the best setup available in my opinion), that is the one you want. It gives you space for the nads in between the two straps, unlike a "V" which has no room at all and is worn ON TOP of them, and tightly at that.
In terms of mounting, your friend made a good guess, but not good enough. He is not aware of the first job of the sub strap. That is to counter the force of the shoulder straps pulling the lap belt up. ANY sub's first job is to hold the lap belt low over the tops of the thighs so when you do tighten the shoulders, the lap belt does not rise up significantly.
When you set these things up, you need to reference what I call the "Spine Line." This is an imaginary line you create that extends down from your spine as you are seated in the car. The mount point for a "T" sub sent through the seat base should be about 20 degrees behind this spine line. This gives the optimum amount of vertical resistance to shoulder strap loads, cradling for the hips if they project forward, and also comfort as they will not be cutting into your groin as much as a cradle type.
Go to the Schroth website HERE and access the installation instructions. They are the most comprehensive you will find, and will work for all brands. Pick tose instructions that most closely coincide with the style you have.
That is a "T" sub. Short of getting a Schroth Hybrid (the best setup available in my opinion), that is the one you want. It gives you space for the nads in between the two straps, unlike a "V" which has no room at all and is worn ON TOP of them, and tightly at that.
In terms of mounting, your friend made a good guess, but not good enough. He is not aware of the first job of the sub strap. That is to counter the force of the shoulder straps pulling the lap belt up. ANY sub's first job is to hold the lap belt low over the tops of the thighs so when you do tighten the shoulders, the lap belt does not rise up significantly.
When you set these things up, you need to reference what I call the "Spine Line." This is an imaginary line you create that extends down from your spine as you are seated in the car. The mount point for a "T" sub sent through the seat base should be about 20 degrees behind this spine line. This gives the optimum amount of vertical resistance to shoulder strap loads, cradling for the hips if they project forward, and also comfort as they will not be cutting into your groin as much as a cradle type.
Go to the Schroth website HERE and access the installation instructions. They are the most comprehensive you will find, and will work for all brands. Pick tose instructions that most closely coincide with the style you have.
10-10-2006, 08:30 PM
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John,
I have a 5 point sparco belt setup that is fresh and came with the car. the shoulders are attached to one of your roll bars. I am trying to avoid cutting the new seats that dont have sub holes.
am i correct that the picture i posted requires holes to be cut?
are you saying the sub belt should be mounted in back of the drivers back? if so, I can have him make a piece of steel about 2" wide that will mount to the two rear holes.
do you recommend that blue belt over the single strap I have? if i get that belt in the picture above do i have to cut sub holes?
am going to schroth now.
I have a 5 point sparco belt setup that is fresh and came with the car. the shoulders are attached to one of your roll bars. I am trying to avoid cutting the new seats that dont have sub holes.
am i correct that the picture i posted requires holes to be cut?
are you saying the sub belt should be mounted in back of the drivers back? if so, I can have him make a piece of steel about 2" wide that will mount to the two rear holes.
do you recommend that blue belt over the single strap I have? if i get that belt in the picture above do i have to cut sub holes?
am going to schroth now.
10-10-2006, 09:09 PM
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Hey;
Mount them like Schroth says. You'll be looking at their "Profi" instructions. The "T" will obviously be more comfortable than a "V" in a cradle that you sit on, but it still must be worn TIGHT to the groin so it will still dig in. A cradle sub arrangement does not hold the lap belt down at all well, and so must be "pre-tensioned" by wearing it tight.
I would suggest you cut the seat either way, or get one with a hole. The advantage here is you can put the hole(s) EXACTLY where it is needed. Many seat holes are not in the right place, certainly not for a double sub of any sort. Ultrashield is the only one I know that gets that right.
You can use the single sub. They work very well, properly set up, but not as good a the "T."
Read Schroth, use the "T", cut the seat, and you'll have a good setup!
Mount them like Schroth says. You'll be looking at their "Profi" instructions. The "T" will obviously be more comfortable than a "V" in a cradle that you sit on, but it still must be worn TIGHT to the groin so it will still dig in. A cradle sub arrangement does not hold the lap belt down at all well, and so must be "pre-tensioned" by wearing it tight.
I would suggest you cut the seat either way, or get one with a hole. The advantage here is you can put the hole(s) EXACTLY where it is needed. Many seat holes are not in the right place, certainly not for a double sub of any sort. Ultrashield is the only one I know that gets that right.
You can use the single sub. They work very well, properly set up, but not as good a the "T."
Read Schroth, use the "T", cut the seat, and you'll have a good setup!
10-10-2006, 10:06 PM
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read the schroth page, now i see what you are saying.
i will confirm that that sparco dual sub belt will fit my buckle and order a pair of them.
got a rough idea where the standard holes are cut and will make the passenger seat the standard distance since my instructor will probably have more girth than me.
I will cut the holes in my seat in a few weeks and mount the dual sub.
i will confirm that that sparco dual sub belt will fit my buckle and order a pair of them.
got a rough idea where the standard holes are cut and will make the passenger seat the standard distance since my instructor will probably have more girth than me.
I will cut the holes in my seat in a few weeks and mount the dual sub.
