volpenyc

I have heard that all current Porsches have electronc data recovery (EDR) or "black boxes". Can anyone confirm this to be true?

Steve Weiner-Rennsport Systems

Hi George:

All '96 and later cars do,.....Its called OBD-II.

volpenyc

What kind of data do they record? I have heard that they record once triggered by the deployment of the airbag.

Steve Weiner-Rennsport Systems

All OBD-II cars log (in addition to engine parameters), speed, RPM, date, time, etc.

God help us if insurance companies & law enforcement start downloading data immediately following an accident or when receiving a moving violation. Its ALL there,......

OBD-II cars log this data continously as long as the key is on and the engine is running. Airbag deployment has nothing to do with it.

volpenyc

I couldn't agree more - and the reason why I asked. I'm sure the entire Porsche constituency would be up in arms about this significant privacy issue if word got out. I was under the assumption that ODB-II only recorded 5 seconds prior to airbag deployment, like GM cars.

We should be mobilized and ready should there be legistlation introduced that would allow insurance companies, or worse, law enforcement access to this privileged data.

Jim 944S

I'm under the impression that it has already been used to prosecute a case and admitted as evidence.

Jim 1987 944S

Steve Weiner-Rennsport Systems

George:

I'm afraid that a precedent has already been set, thus far. It will likely require a trip to the Top Court but one should deluge one's Congressmen and Senators and track these affairs VERY closely.

Its the very kind of thing that sneaks in under the radar and get passed into law by extreme lobbying from the insurance industry and the law enforcement community.

The upcoming OBD-III is proposed with in-car transponders that automatically transmit all information to sensors embedded in the roads used currently for truckers.

volpenyc

That's not good!

JeffES

Please note that OBD II is a standard system aboard ALL cars and light duty trucks sold in the US - not just Porsche or GM. OBD III (remote sensing) deployment is being debated as we speak (ok, type...)
J

chrisalberts

Whoa there folks. There are two different things here. One is the ODB2, basically for emissions control and diagnostics purposes. The other thing is the "black box" similar to a flight recorder that stores a rolling x amount of data including things such as throttle position, whether brakes were applied, airbag deployment and so on. It was put in cars originally to troubleshoot and understand airbag deployments and accidents. It is this second thing that can be used as evidence. Most OBD2 systems record max speed and max revs, but it is not typically timestamped, so no real use from an evidentiary perspective.

GM has been installing these boxes in cars for over 10 years, Ford has them in some vehicles since 01 (not trucks) and Isuzu as well. None of the other mfrs appear to have them.

It's also worth noting that the owner of the vehicle owns the data, so it may become important in the future as to whom you release your vehicle to for investigation purposes.

Let's not start worrying that the sky is falling just yet, let's just see this as (yet) another reason NOT to buy a GM vehicle.

C.

Steve Weiner-Rennsport Systems

Chris:

With all due respect, I'd suggest you take a look at any OBD-II car with a proprietary or generic OBD-II scan tool and you'll clearly see the information that I am speaking of. Its there for anyone to see.

Buy the CarChip and you can log 300 hours of 50 different engine and vehicle parameters.

chrisalberts

My mistake then, Steve, but I think we're talking at cross purposes. There exist black boxes (known as SDMs) that work just as the original poster indicates (storing information immediately prior to airbag deployment). These black boxes, that only exist in GM, Ford, Isuzu have been used in court (in Florida IIRC) to convict a guy of vehicular manslaughter. The information is accessed through OBD ports, but it does not follow that all OBD2 equipped cars store this information - they don't.

I've heard of OBD2 information being used to void warranties, but not to convict etc. That was my impression of what the original poster was hinting at. I bow to your superior knowledge of OBD2, but I don't think that was the point. As you say "airbag deployment's got nothing to do with (OBD2)".

Do a google search for "black box car accidents" and ignore the first couple of hits listed (they relate to a European idea using GPS). Check out the nhtsa links and a company called Vetronix.

C.

Steve Weiner-Rennsport Systems

Hi Chris:

LOL,..I was quite disturbed to see all the vehicular data that OBD-II logs such as speed, time, RPM, etc.

My only point for George was to point out that with any generic scan tool, any cop or insurance adjuster can download that data and once this info is introduced in a court, it will be "prima facie" evidence just like radar, VASCAR and Laser is. After that, we'll all be subject to whatever sanctions that are possible.

Gads, I hate to sound like some kind of fatalist, but I think this is one waiting to happen.

John H

I used the information retrieved from the van's computer to defend a client who said his throttle stuck open and he could not get stopped prior to an accident. One of the key things he kept saying was that he tried to jam the van in park and even turned off the key. The computer stored the fault codes indicating the car had been put in park while the vehicle was exceeeding the 5 mile an hour threshold and the igniton was then turned off while the car was still moving. I, being the cynic, was not sure I believed him (especially the part about putting the van in park while moving). I assumed that would either cause the transmission to lock up or break something. My "expert" indicated that the vehicle will not go into park above the aforementioned threshold but goes into neutral. Therefore, he put the van in park (neutral), going down a hill, shut off the ignition (and his power brakes and steering) and could not stop. Computer revealed the van was tuned off with at least 1/3 throttle and was "put" into park just prior to the accident. For every bad connotation, there is a plus side I suppose.

Alan C.

Wasn't it France, go figure, that was experimenting with a system a couple of years ago that would allow the police to download speed data from a car suspected of speeding?