tar6day

What are the different cup car configurations Porsche made b/w 1999-2005? I keep seeing GT3, GT3R, GT3RS.
What model is most often raced?
What is the class in PCA, SCCA, NASA?
Which is the fastest?
How often is a engine/transmision rebuild necessary?Cost?

Thanks

Nordschleife

A partial response

Firstly, separate the road cars from the race cars

Road GT3s
996 GT3 and GT3 Clubsport Mk I
996 GT3 RS (do not confuse with the race car of the same common name)
996 GT3 and GT3 Clubsport Mk II

of theses 3, the GT3 RS is rthe rarest, fastest, most hard edged and desirable. Not sold in North America.

Race GT3s
2 Distinct families
Cup cars and ACO/FIA GT cars

Cup cars - used predominantly in Supercup and Carrera Cup racing, also classes in Daytona 24 Hours, Rolex series, Speed World Challenge, Spa 24 Hours, Zolder 24 Hours, Nuerburgring 24 Hours, United Long Distance Championship at the Nuerburgring and assorted club racing classes in North America.
996 GT3 Cup, gradually improved from year to year, better aerodynamics, gear change, more power, brakes, suspension, instruments, data logging, engine and gearbox reliability. the 2005 997 GT3 Cup, to be used in the forthcoming Supercup series has a sequential gearbox, full Motec instrumentation, improved aero package, uprated PCCB brakes, fuel cell (almost certainly), and a few other changes, expect the car to be noticably faster than the previous model, at least in the hands of professionals. Crankcase still based on the bulletproof 964 unit. From 2005 the cars run in the FIA GT3 class, a variation of which is applied to Daytona and the Rolex series.

FIA & ACO cars
996 GT3 R
996 GT3 RS
996 GT3 RSR
until 2005 delivered in ACO (Le Mans and ALMS) or FIA trim. Major difference being in the arrangement oif the underbody, other differences being comparatively minor, most obvious being different inlet restrictors. From the 2005 seasons, FIA and ACO have agreed to unify their codes, so now the cars are supplied in conformance with GT2 class regulations. Much more expensive than the GT3 Cup cars.

Best value for money is the Cup car. A budget racer that can run sprints (Carrera Cup) or long distance including Daytona and Nuerburgring.

My rule of thumb is to rebuild the engine every 35 hours, the factory makes the following suggestions for intending Daytona entrants:
........ a Daytona engine should have less than 100 hours and less than 5 hours since a rebuild. They also suggest a gearbox with less than 15 hours, new fuel pumps, filters, radiators and lambda sensors amongst other stuff.
I don't know what a rebuild cost in the US. It is a good idea to rebuild/replace all moving parts apart from the engine and gearbox. A generous allowance for a complete moving parts rebuild in Europe is EUR 30-35,000. top racers buy a new car every year, the market for season old cars is buoyant, especially if they have been run with distinction in the Supercup.

In terms of numbers, there are many more Cup cars than ACO/FIA cars. Over 200 cup cars were built for the 2004 season.

The FIA/ACO car is faster than the Cup car. However, unless you are looking to race in an Internationally recognised series, the Cup car is a much better proposition, costing over EUR 100,000 less for only marginally less on track performance.

The above is a very rough and generalised overview from a European perspective, any shortcomings I apologise for in advance and ask that others amplify the inadequacies.

R+C

rdstemler

This is why I but lottery tickets!

ltc

That's why I went with a 964 Cup!

Glen

Very well said, I have added some details compliments of Lynn Wilson and Chris Cervelli.

"Basic changes:

1999 360hp
2000 370
2001 370
2002 380
2003 390

2000 car received cable shifter as change over from mechanical linkage
2000 car delivered with clear lower lenses and not amber on front head lamps
2000 car delivered with clear rear lenses with red. No longer amber/red

2001 car received updated wing
2001 car received larger central radiator as on GT3RS
2001 car had ducting in nose for more efficient cooling through larger central radiator
2001 car delivered with enhanced GT3R rear toe links

2002 car received transmission cooler as on GT3RS
2002 car received 350mm front disks and larger front caliper(previous cars use 330 mm turbo rotors and calipers)
2002 car received more efficient aerodynamics on front as bodywork style and front lights change
2002 car comes delivered with fire suppression system and not just extinguisher
2002 wheels become 9 and 11 x18 up from 8.5 and 10.5
2002 car gets fractionally wider front fender as part of body style change
2002 gets quieter exhaust which now exits in center of rear bumper
2002 receives ECU as in GT3RS

2003 has more carbon fiber in rear deck-rear, doors and other areas
2003 delivered with window frame
2003 received shorter gear ratios in 4/5/6(ring and pinion stays the same)
2003 received mildly different aero package with different side rockers Front essentially same as 2002
2003 received larger fuel tank now 89 liters increased from 68
2003 received adjustable sachs shocks

2004 very similar to 2003

Chassis stiffer each year
Spring rates same through all years as is basic suspension geometry

lap times remarkably similar for 1999-2002 in carrera cup and supercup. In 2003, this year the car appears slightly quicker...mostly due to adjustable shocks and certainly shorter gears

Recently 2000 cup car with 76 hrs on motor dyno at only 15hp less than fresh 2003 car; 2000 car made 2 ft-lb more torque than 2003.
The hp ratings are deceiving...the earlier cars may be not as high at peak, but perhaps stronger in lower rpm areas and hence a bit more drivability.

In 2001:
Cup car 380hp @ 7250rpm with rev limit of 8000;
GT3RS 430hp @ 8200rpm with adjustable limiter, but basically set at 8600.

Cup car -single throttle body, NO restrictor
GT3RS- 6 throttle bodies, and restrictors in each plenum
SV motor upgrade: No restrictor, different pistons, cams, rev limit, electric power steering as GT3RS, subsequent compression increase with different pistons, reprogrammed ECU, and many other changes over standard cup not listed here. HP as Chris stated.

Differences between GT3RS and cup car would take several pages,.....

http://content2.eu.porsche.com/prod/.../rennfahrzeuge

The cars are identcle in supercup and carrera cup. They use the GT3 cup car and teams use the latest model(or a slightly older model upgraded to the current year's specification). Supercup is the European series that serves as the F1 support series. Carrera cup is a regional series primarily in Germany. Many drivers cross over between Supercup and Carrera cup though, so the quality of professional level driver is similar between the 2 series.
Go to
http://www.farnbacherracing.com
check out the gallery and then video. Load the mid level length video. It is in car footage from JB, who is one of the Porsche factory works drivers. It demonstrates quite nicely the ability of the series drivers and the car itself.
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lynn Wilson

The 04 car has a significantly different torque specification within the differential (the ramps are the same angles) than the 03, the chassis is stiffer, the motor despite being listed as 390, makes more power than the 03, has completely different motor internals than previous years, and has better drivability which makes it quicker off the corner. The 04 car is quicker than the 03 at circuits of 1:30-1:50 lap times by 1-2 seconds than even the 03, and this time differential is larger when compared to earlier years.

In Tim's defense and the other PCA drivers at Indy, they had never raced the circuit before and there was limited track time so the issue of no practice that applied to Dominik, also applied to the PCA drivers. The PCA drivers also are likely not taking the risks that the supercup regulars are both given the financials involved and goals. DF has done very well in European supercup and hence he has proven his ability to run in front and his not being able to do so in Indy, proves how difficult the circuit is to master for the inexperienced. Indy is very different than almost all other road courses in that it has a banking that is daunting-especially if the car is not set up exactly right for it. It is NOT like Daytona where it is simply flat out with ease.

At the WG PCA race two weekends ago, Tim R., Chris Wally and Paul Orwicz all turned qualifying times in the 2:00 flat range in 2004 cup cars. These are extremely impressive lap times for cup cars. Tim, Chris and Paul all know WG very well which was different than the indy situation. The fastest ever documented lap times in cup cars at WG were done by Randy Pobst this year in Grand Am qualifying at a 1:58.6 and JF Doumoulin in 2000. It is likely that Randy would be a bit quicker if on non Grand Am spec Hoosier slicks and without the ballast bringing the car up to 2700 from the low 2600 range. Jf Doumolin turned a 1:58.6 in a stock 2000 cup car in the 6 hr WG Grand Am race in 2000. The only modification to that car was shocks and no cats. Randy and JF are considered 2 of the best sports car drivers in North America. Given the circumstances in Indy,despite the lap times, the PCA guys did pretty well, considering they were competing against several drivers who would be able to be on an F1 grid if given the opportunity.

Some of the final differential times from one of the indy races make the cars appear close. This was becasue the race finished under yelllow.
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lynn Wilson

It is fair to say that in stock trim the ultimate lap time in perfect weather for a 1992 964 cup car will be in the 2:06 range and for the 996 2004 cup car it will be in the high 1:57 range. The 993 cup cars will fall into the 2:03 range and all other 996 cars with the exception of the 1998 year will be 1:59-2:00. (the 98 cars were notoriously difficult to set up and the 1999 cars had some issues in that department but the bugs were sorted out)
I discussed this with Dirk Muller in 2001 who was a porsche works driver at the time (now for BMW) and he felt that the 2001 or earlier cup cars in stock trim were not capable -even with him driving- of breaking 2:00 flat barrier at WG.

The 2003 cup car is a touch quicker than previous years as it has shorter gears, adjustable shocks, 10 more hp, and greater wing angle in addition to other changes such as stiffer chassis. Cory Friedman jumped into a 2003 in the PCA race last year, with the car delivered to the track from the airport and did a 2:00 flat. My own back to back testing experience reveals no difference between 1999-2001 cars given the same tires. The 2002 is a tad quicker due to slight power and stiffness, but it is tenths of a second. I have not driven the 04, but I can say that it is quicker off the corner than the 2002 and earlier

European supercup qualifying times over the years reveal no significant advantage for one year over another until 2004, but this is a challenge to analyze as the series changed tires in 3 years ago. What we do know, based on supercup times, dyno runs, and from those who have driven the 04 back to back with earlier models is that it is the quickest of the cars yet with the greatest leap in any given year in performance.

At a very twisty circuit like Barber or Carolina, the differences in the cup car range will be more notable. At a track like Daytona, where most of the lap is one essentially one long straight away, the differences are less. This is why despite being in the oldest cup car in the field (2000) we were able to have a competitive qualifying time in the SGS class at Daytona 24 this year. An 04 car would have been even faster of course.

All who have driven an 04 and have driven any of the earlier models will say it is the easiest car to drive of all the cup car series.
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lynn Wilson

As mentioned, Marco Werner drove in the Sebring PCA weekend in 2003. His quickest time was a 2:13 and this was in a 2002 car. Dominik dipped into the 2:10 range in a new 2004 car this year. I think most would agree, that ion a shoot out, Marco will be quicker than Dominik. Marco was second overall in the European Supercup championship in 2001 and 2002! So, this is just yet another data point of the superiority of the 2004 car. Neither driver had ever seen the sebring track as a driver before their respective PCA weekends.

Patrick Long co-drove in the enduro at Sebring this year with Keith Alexander in a 2002 car. There was no tire change at the pit stop so Patrick was on worn out rubber and could manage only a 2:16. We would have expected a 2:13 just as werner did the previous year in a 2002 car. In the same race, Dominik did a 2:11 in an 04. The 04 car was visually clearly faster off the corner and as a result was down the straight as well. Patrick is a factory works driver and was incredibly quick at Indy last weekend despite also never having driven there and not having driven a cup car for a while. He was very accustomed to the GT3RSR as he had just won LeMans the previous weekend. So, perhaps the tires were bad, but again, the 04 car is dominant over the 2002 car.

David Murry did a few test laps in a 2004 car at Sebring and did a 2:11 in the same weekend.

David Murry raced what was basically a slightly tweaked D class stock car on DOT tires at Lime Rock in 1999 and was racing against all of the GT2 cars and did a 59.2 in the race and finished second overall in a car that was outclassed on set up and power to weight ratio by a mile.

David also did some test laps this year in an 04 cup car at the atlanta PCA weekend in testing and turned a 1:29.
Of note, Cory Friedman also turned a 1:29 in a 2000 cup car with only Moton shocks, springs and a open exhaust. same weather, same weekend.

Darren Law, who saw supercup action at Indy in 2000 (and was within about 1 second of the pole that Indy weekend) drove a 2000 GT3R at the Summit point PCA weekend as a test. He did not participate in the race in fairness to the club drivers as he was doing 1:14s and was the quickest driver there by 3 seconds per lap.
Darren also drove an RSR in Grand Am trim in 1999 at Carolina PCA
and won overall with a blistering lap time of 1:37.1 and did the same at Summit point with a time of 1:16.3; again an incredible time for a normally aspirated car of that vintage in Grand Am trim.

So, for perspective, this is what the super-pro/supercup level driver lap times at the following tracks in stock 04 trim cup cars would be give or take 0.5 seconds:

Sebring: 2:11.0
Atlanta: 1:28.0
Carolina: 1:36.0
Lime Rock: 56.3 (not using chicane)
Summit: 1:15.5
WG:1:58.5
Mid Ohio: 1:32.5 (with use of chicane)
Daytona: 1:57.5

There are a couple PCA regulars who are incredibly talented, who are very close to or actually at these benchmarks.
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lynn Wilson

We have used many sets of mag centered, 3 piece wheels from BBS in Grand Am Cup. They have have been very good, although we have had a failure once and a while. It is usually discovered as a minor hairline fracture upon routine inspection. We have also had experience with the OEM aluminum centered wheels and failures are quite rare. Typically only seen in wheels that are several years old with allot of time on them. Both the mag and aluminum centered 3 piece wheels can be used with center locks or 5 lug studs. BBS will mill the stud holes into the centers. The early aluminum centered cup wheels for cup cars through 2001 can be had at prices less expensive than the mag centered wheels. These earlier aluminum centered wheels are 8.5 and 10.5x18. They will clear 996 turbo sized calipers but not the GT3 front caliper(350mm disk). For this clearance, you either need a spacer or need to go to the current aluminum cup wheels which are very expensive relative to the older ones.

The new GT3 wheel is another option. It is a bit heavier and rather expensive,...but likely strong.

I second Chris' comments about Fikse....only had good experiences.

BBS has also recently had a personnel change in the motorsport division in Braselton,...so things are improved.
__________________
lynn Wilson

I have some Dynojet data:

Cup Car: 345-355 hp at the wheels

Cup Car with Speedvision upgrade: 390-400 hp at the wheels

I have not done a GT3R.
__________________
Chris Cervelli
Technodyne, Inc.

1999-2001
Front: 8.5 x 18, offset 46.5mm
Rear: 10.5 x 18, offset 59mm

2002
9x18, offset 46.5mm
11x18, offset 59mm

2003
9x18, offset 46mm
11x18, offset 59mm
__________________
lynn Wilson



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When Porsche produced the GT3R and GT3 cup cars and went through the homologation process, this was in association with the GT3 996 production model which is available in Europe. All 3 of these vehicles run a 3.6 liter/water colled/dry sump system. So yes, it can be said that the GT3R and RS motor may have been based on a similar motor that was in the GT1, but Porsche also utilized this basic engine package in a street production car that is available to the public. I have not seen or heard about a 4 liter M3 available to the public as a production car.
That is the problem.
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lynn Wilson

Here in the US in PCA all the 996 Cups run in GTC3 where the only real difference is ultimately the driver. The last 2-3 seconds per lap still have to be driven and can't be "cheated" no matter what is done to the cars. Many of the GTC3 cars have been updated also so the differences have become less and less apparent over the last year. It is by far the largest class in PCA with I believe F being the next largest as far as licensed drivers and logbooked cars.

The most important thing to know is that if You are looking to buy a 996 Cup you had better get one with a sealed motor by Porsche(there will be a SUPERCUP sticker on the lower case bolt) and You better get it bought within the next few weeks....

As far as the GT3R, GT3 RS they are great cars but have not really been given a great place to race this year except for PCA under the new rules in the various series.

The CUP is GT2 eligible in SCCA, fits nicely into Grand Am and ALMS with some specific updates and of course is in GTC3 in PCA which is an absolute rush. Road America had 67 cars going into turn one, 37 of them were GTC3 Cups, another 12-15 were GTA (996 factory race car derivatives) or GT3 R cars. If You want to get better as a driver there is no better place to race than in this class. I am sure there will be 50 Cup cars in GTC3 at Sebring if not more this year. That being said it is not the car to begin with, they are obscenely fast when well driven and the cost of errors is very high, both financially and physically.

I have found mine to be extremely easy to take care of, work on myself when I have time and not very expensive to operate at all when compared to my other cars I have raced.

The best part of the car is that they have been improving the safety of the platform for 4 decades as well as the performance.(Tim that is why we duplicated the factory cage in the car You bought from me!) My car is still for sale as I would like to move to the 997 CUP next year but I remain conflicted for the reasons stated above!

Hope this helps clarify things a bit.

tar6day

Glen,

Please, not such a short response.......jeez! I knew it was only a matter of time!

Thanks

Tim

Glen

Tim, I will of course accept my old car in partial trade...lol

Nordschleife

thanks for that amplification, a couple of points:

there was a big difference in times between the 2002 and 2003 cars. Mostly it was down to two factors, the LSD and a change in tyre compounds from Michelin. The LSD changed the line through the corners and the tyres were not as fast for a qualification lap but went off less over the duration of a race. The best engine from 2002 was comparable to the good engines of 2003. When I had one tested at Weissach I was told, in that 'Weissach way', 'its good, better than average, but there are better', I pointed out it was a 2002 engine, and eyebrows were raised. And no, I'm not saying exactly how much power we are talking about, that's the 'Weissach way"! If you are fairly confident there will not be any scruitineering problems, you may like to reverse the LSD, expect an experienced driver to increase speed out of the corner.

For 2005, with the exception of the Supercup, which is running 997 GT3 Cup cars, the Carrera Cup, and all other competitions will be running the 2004 996 GT3 Cup cars, the 997 car will not be released to anybody apart from Supercup competitors until after the 2005 season, subject to any changes of heart.

Be careful not to confuse SCCA or anybody else's GT2 regulations with the merged FIA ACO GT2 class, which is the same as the old ACO GT and FIA GT-N classes. The Cup car would be outclassed in ALMS and GT2 class rqacing. Under the new regulations the cup car will run in GT3, however under races organised under FIA or ACO regulations, the 997 Cup car's brakes are ineligible.

The only way a driver can move to the 997 GT3 Cup car in 2005 is by becoming a SuperCup entrant. Without some experience of racing at that level, that is a big ask. There are 7 Carrera and Supercup series around the world, none of which are US based, which might explain why there are so few US drivers in the Supercup, currently only Patrick Long springs to mind.

I have no idea how good the Michelin tyres that were available to the Cup cars at Daytona were. This could easily explain the apparent lap time anomalies. It is very important to be on Michelin's list for the 'good' tyres.

R+C

Glen

More great points. thank You!

In PCA the update of the LSD would not create a problem, do not know in the other series...On that note I do know where an 04 gearbox complete with intercooler with either long or short gears and the late LSD can be had if anyone needs it prior to Daytona. PM me for details on that though.

I believe the Daytona tire was not the EURO spec, it did not have the Yellow Cup sticker from what I understand...

Since the CUP series was Herr Brettel's baby and he now heads Porsche Motorsport North America we eagerly(hopefully) await the logical extension of a Cup series into N.A.

Patrick Long and Brent Martini both were very kind and helpful at Barber and Road America this year for me, I can't say enough nice things about their capabilities on track and what great individuals they were off also! I would be willing to say that either one could hold their own in any of the CUP series out there these days although I believe Patrick is running Cup again and Brent ran DP with Cort Wagner this year.

Thanks again for Your unique input, it is very much appreciated.

tar6day

Nordschleife + Glen,

What is the advantage of having a Motec data system over other systems? Why so darn expensive?

Thanks,
Tim

Glen

My car has a MOTEC dash and it is very helpful specifically for doing data overlays with Patrick Long and Brent Martini. The pros all seem to have Motec and that is why I have it, so I can see where I am giving up time and making mistakes versus the quicker guys. The other systems seem to work well btw but You need to let someone faster than You drive Your car and then look at that data if You dont have the same systems. the various systems do not translate to each other yet and I am not sure financially why the co's that sell them ever would allow it...The CUP series do not allow data acquisition although the new 997 CUP will have it.

tar6day

A GT3 RS would run in GT-2 in PCA, correct? Is that a small class? What other series could the car run (NASA, SCCA, etc.)

Geoffrey

A GT3R, RS, or RSR would run in GTA

Much of the cost of the MoTeC dash is in the quality of the construction. It uses an aircraft developed LCD panel that is unaffected by sunlight and temperature. It is a unit targed for professional racing and is priced competitively against EFI Technologies and others that are available at that level of racing.

Z06

What additional work was done to the Speedvision GT3's to make
395-400 rwhp?.....I am also interested in a Cup car tranny.

Nordschleife

Delivering 400 bhp for hour after racing hour is where the genius lies. Races tend to be won by people driving as slow as possible. Speed World Challenge is not a problem for the Cup cars. However, this is a very 'artificial' series, do you really believe that an Audi RS6 is faster than a 'vette?

R+C