frayed

Carnewal sells a pieced together kit to convert the GT3 to the RS suspension:

http://www.carnewal-europe.com/cpx_p96175.htm

Apparently all parts directly bolt-up.

In the November 2004 issue of Excellence, page 57, on the GT3 RS relative to the GT3, states:

"The hubs benefit from a total redesign to make the most of improved dynamic camber control that results from new suspension mounting points. Monoballs in the front end are now adjustable like those on the rear and you can turn the suspension arms by 120 degrees to get even more negative camber. Of course, this is really only useful for race cars- as you really wouldn't want 4.0+ degrees of negative camber for road work. The result of this work delivers better control, reduces bump-steer tendencies, and serious setup possibilities for 2004 GT3 RSR."

Later, the mag states:

"What you do notice, however, is the front end's greater stability over bumps - especially when you're making the suspension work for it."

Evo magazine, in it's shootout including the GT3 RS against the Exige, noted less bumpsteer. IIRC, they mentioned revised pickup points.

So, my question is this: although the RS suspension can be bolted directly to a GT3, does the RS have revised pickup points? If so, you'd end up with a frankenstein of a car. NOT DESIRABLE.

frayed

OK, pulled the Evo magazine. It compares the RS against the Stradale, the Noble, Exige. Pages 115-116 of the June 2004 issue state:

"The standard GT3's major flaw is its pattery, traculent front end. Prone to understeer unless confident, forceful hands are preapred to drive around the problem, it's the unhappy result of suspension geometry pushed too far from the optimum by the need to lower and stiffen the suspension. Built solely with FIA homologation in mind, the RS rights those wrongs with revised supension mounting points that are both more rigid and better placed to maintain optimum wheel travel and geometry in road racing applications. Combined with the now ubiquitous P Zero Corsa tyres. . . . the benefits are immediately noticeable."

The article goes on to state:

"The transformation in steering feel and response between the GT3 and the GT3 RS is sensational. The nodding motion has been banished too, thanks to slightly firmer springs and dampers and those rigid mounting points, but there's no deterioration in the 911's ability to absorb bumps. It's a beaut."

Then, in conclusion with the GT3 RS stealing the show:

"So the honors go to Suttgart. More importantly (not to mention depressingly for all you Porschephobes), the RS has addressed the formidable GT3's flaws so completely that the victory is nothing less than decisive. It's often asiad there's no such thing as the perfect car. From purely an evo perspective, having driven the GT3 RS, I beg to differ."

--------------------------


So, I ask. . . can anyone confirm that the pickup points are revised? Magazines print what the manufacture tells them to print (obviously Excellence and Evo did not climb under the GT3 and the GT3 RS to measure and evaluate the pickup points) and I'm wondering if what they printed is accurate, or obscured by what Porsche wanted the mags to print. For example, revised pickup points and rigidity could be an embellishment for stiffer bushings and rear monoballs. And, as most of you track hounds know, R comps and alignment make all the difference, rendering direct comparisons of limited value.

Thoughts?

Yargk

My thought is that this is an excellent question. Someone must have the answer. Have you e-mailed carnewal?

Z06

I would look into the cup car stuff...race teams that use the RSR. .. contact / look for Cary Eisenlohr ..those are the people you should ask.

frayed

From searching the archives, from what I can glean Carnewal claims that the RS conversion can be completely done with bolt-on parts.

With all due respect, Carnewal sells parts and is not a race shop (to my knowledge). Hence, against the backdrop of a couple of magazine articles from non-mainstream mags, I'm hoping for a definitive answer on the subject.

mooty

jeff, have you talked to steve weiner about this question? i never asked. but he may know something.

frayed

Yeah, talked to Steve. He didn't know.

cosmos

Ok, I dont like typing very much, so call me monday. I will answer all questions and help you with this very difficult problem. We will find a way for you to spend all that hard earned money.

Nordschleife

perhaps a smart question would be

"What is involved in fitting 997 GT3 Cup suspension parts to a 996 Mk II GT3?" Then if that is straight forward, as I have a feeling it is, then all you need are VLN springs, shocks and ARBs and you have a car which is streetable and trackable.

After all the GT3 RS modifications were made to allow the RSR to be homologated. The 997 GT3 Cup has many RSR suspension parts, so it may all bolt up quite readily.

For reference, the VLN is the Endurance Championship that is run at the Nuerburgring on the Nordschleife. The last time I was quoted a suspension change (from Cup to VLN) for a Supercup car, it was less than EUR 2,500 (including a generous labour allowance), and that was from somebody who had won the championship with similar cars in the past. It wasn't Ohlins or Moton but it worked.

R+C

frayed

GT23, for further clarification:

The above magazine quotes seem to draw a distinction b/t (i) pickup points and (i) the wheel carriers. I had always thought that use of the term 'pickup points' referred to the actual points on the tub/frame/unibody to which the moving parts of the suspension are mounted such as the control arm mounting locations.

However, your post above attributes the change in pickup points entirely to the change in wheel carriers. Is that really right?

nmex

I spend friday with David Moorspeed here in Austin and we talk about suspention work as weel ( I was there mainly to see if he can do a gear chan ce and RSR fly wheel and Cluch) He told me that the suspention on the GT3 is almost as good as the one on the RSR and tht he converted a Regular GT3 for the Speed Vision series to spec. He mention to me that most of the change of the care handelng will be afected once I would got to a set of Moton's ( club or full race spec) and repacing the Strut mounts and couple of extra drilling in some parts ( would not tell me more) to get extra adjustment for the front and rear suspencion. You are here in Austin I would suggest you to go tal to him very cool guy and he defenately nose his stuff. Plust to see his shop and all the cool race cars that he has there will give you some confidence of the work he does.

NJ-GT

Moton Racing are not worth the money in my opinion (almost twice the price of CS). The ClubSport have the same range of adjustments with lower resolution (easier for me, because I don't own a racing team).

I replaced my strut mounts front (Olaf Manthey) and rear (TRG). The extra drilling is ideal at the front strut tops, to get additional camber.

There is now way the GT3 suspension is as good as the GT3RS suspension. The calipers on the RS sit lower to reduce the center of gravity, caster is higher (mentioned as better stability on straight line by magazines), the wheel carriers are lighter (reduced unsprung weight), the eccentrics on the rear control arms allow more range of adjustment.

just my opinion.

DCLee

I use the Eisenlohr suspension links extensively in my RS Clone, and coupled with Cupcar stuff and JRZ Doubles, the results are very impressive.

The RS suspension requires more than just the uprights-- you need subframe components as well. I felt that the RS conversion was too exènsive for a fairly modest performance bump. Going the Cup-ERP-JRZ route seemed better for a track car.

Lee in D.C. (well, somewhere is Spain now, actually... if any Eurofolk know how I can buy a local SIM chip for my PC without getting hit for a year´s worth of monthly service fees, let me know )

frayed

Ahh, there we go. The RS subframe change would most likely change the hard pickup points for the suspension. I cannot see how hubs, control arms, uprights will change the actual mounting points of the suspension, but a subframe swap could certainly alter those points. Makes sense now.

Balkan

The only different parts are the wheel carrier,rollbar drop link and the strut/spring.