Why it is so hard to talk driving techniques on the internet!
08-09-2006, 04:34 PM
#1
Race Director
Thread Starter
Why it is so hard to talk driving techniques on the internet!
Guys, after many discussions about driving style on the this forum I have come to the great realization (some will probably say what took you so long) that it is so hard because driving is so relative.
There are few if any absolutes in track driving or racing techniques. What is faster is something that can't be learned from grand applys to all statements.
Late apex, early apex, trail brake, left foot brake, straight line brake, etc all can be the right or wrong thing to do depend on your car, the track, the corner, and even where in the corner you are.
So when some says trail braking is best and some else says don't do it... well in many cases they are BOTH right given they both have different situations mind.
Of course dealing with these variables is one reason the instructor so important and he or she can cut through many of those variabes and teach what is important for that student at that track in that corner in that car.
So the answer to the question... should trail brake? is nearly impossible to answer.
Now should I trail brake for Turn 3 at Superduper speedway driving my modified Rennwagen with R-tires? That is much easier to answer, but even then it can be complex.
There are few if any absolutes in track driving or racing techniques. What is faster is something that can't be learned from grand applys to all statements.
Late apex, early apex, trail brake, left foot brake, straight line brake, etc all can be the right or wrong thing to do depend on your car, the track, the corner, and even where in the corner you are.
So when some says trail braking is best and some else says don't do it... well in many cases they are BOTH right given they both have different situations mind.
Of course dealing with these variables is one reason the instructor so important and he or she can cut through many of those variabes and teach what is important for that student at that track in that corner in that car.
So the answer to the question... should trail brake? is nearly impossible to answer.
Now should I trail brake for Turn 3 at Superduper speedway driving my modified Rennwagen with R-tires? That is much easier to answer, but even then it can be complex.
Last edited by M758; 08-09-2006 at 05:01 PM.
08-09-2006, 04:57 PM
#3
Rennlist
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Originally Posted by M758
So when some says trail braking is best and some else says don't do it... well in many cases they are BOTH right given they both have different situations mind.
__________________
Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
08-09-2006, 04:58 PM
#4
Rennlist Member
Bingo. Driving, at its most basic level, is merely managing 4 very small contact patches. Everything else is finesse!
08-09-2006, 05:26 PM
#6
It's even hard to talk about it in person!
At the rally school, an instructor said "off" three times forcefully and in fairly quick succession. After the first "off" I took my left foot off the brake. After the second "off" I took my right foot off the gas. After the third "off" I drove off the course. He then looked at me and asked what I was doing. I told him that I had zero idea what he was trying to get me to do. He apologized and explained that he had wanted me to get off the gas. I explained that, while simple, a one word command like "off" can mean so many different things.
It reminded me of having an instructor in the passenger seat of my 44. Typically by the time they say "Gas" I have been full throttle for a couple of seconds already. They will then keep repeating the "Gas" command unless I say "I'm givin er all she's got Captain" in my best Scotty accent.
It is just like everything else. It is hard to explain something to someone who has never done it before. Sorta like the futility of trying to describe to a virgin the best way to have sex.
At the rally school, an instructor said "off" three times forcefully and in fairly quick succession. After the first "off" I took my left foot off the brake. After the second "off" I took my right foot off the gas. After the third "off" I drove off the course. He then looked at me and asked what I was doing. I told him that I had zero idea what he was trying to get me to do. He apologized and explained that he had wanted me to get off the gas. I explained that, while simple, a one word command like "off" can mean so many different things.
It reminded me of having an instructor in the passenger seat of my 44. Typically by the time they say "Gas" I have been full throttle for a couple of seconds already. They will then keep repeating the "Gas" command unless I say "I'm givin er all she's got Captain" in my best Scotty accent.
It is just like everything else. It is hard to explain something to someone who has never done it before. Sorta like the futility of trying to describe to a virgin the best way to have sex.
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08-09-2006, 05:47 PM
#8
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Rennlist Member
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I sometimes wonder what I'm missing when I see things very clearly.
08-09-2006, 05:49 PM
#9
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by TD in DC
It reminded me of having an instructor in the passenger seat of my 44. Typically by the time they say "Gas" I have been full throttle for a couple of seconds already. They will then keep repeating the "Gas" command unless I say "I'm givin er all she's got Captain" in my best Scotty accent.
08-09-2006, 07:21 PM
#10
Rennlist
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Originally Posted by TD in DC
At the rally school, an instructor said "off" three times forcefully and in fairly quick succession. After the first "off" I took my left foot off the brake. After the second "off" I took my right foot off the gas. After the third "off" I drove off the course.
OMG! Is that you to a tee? You are too funny Todd!
08-09-2006, 08:41 PM
#14
Race Car
Posting on the internet about driving is different from a real-life conversation about driving in a lot of ways that wouldn't at first seem apparent. One aspect of it is that guys tend to pretend more experience and greater expertise online than they might claim in a real-life meeting. I think this is probably because typed communication limits the window other people have into our worlds. We can take our time and formulate a response that makes it sound as though we know more than we actually do. (I'm sure many of us remember 'ColorChange.')
An almost-contradictiory aspect of typed, blind communication is that we have a greater tendency to see others as being similar to us. We assume a similar life (and track) experience because there are so few visual clues to reinforce the idea that we're different from the people we're 'speaking' to.
A third factor unique to these online discussions is the tremendous gulf between talking about driving and actually doing it. One is an intellectual construct and the other is an experience. Get someone to describe the rush of falling in love -- or the experience of sex, or doing drugs, or surfing, whatever -- and you'll get a glimpse of the shortcomings of our 'engineering style' conversations about an experience that has peculiar, emotional motivations, and contains a lot of fear and non-technical behavior. Having such a small vocabulary to describe the different ways to navigate a corner tends to make all corners seem similar. (As they say, when all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to resemble a nail.)
It's interesting to see all three of these things play out in Rennlist discussions. You get a lot of guys with strong opinions, casually assuming that everyone they're talking to shares their level of experience and comprehension of track driving -- who then inevitably use language in their discussion that would make an outsider think that racing is a lot like doing a math problem.
I think the best way to talk about driving is at speed, over a Chatterbox, in a car with two people who have a good understanding of each others' backgrounds. Second to that would be a face-to-face discussion at the track, hopefully with a good track map and a specific set of goals for the conversation. Further down the list would be these internet discussions.
However, the plus side to these online conversations is that they allow a lot of guys who would never otherwise meet to exchange ideas. They also allow a lot of drivers with vastly different levels of experience to exchange notes. We just have to understand that we're exchanging notes and ideas in a method that also compromises that exchange in some important and difficult-to-see ways.
An almost-contradictiory aspect of typed, blind communication is that we have a greater tendency to see others as being similar to us. We assume a similar life (and track) experience because there are so few visual clues to reinforce the idea that we're different from the people we're 'speaking' to.
A third factor unique to these online discussions is the tremendous gulf between talking about driving and actually doing it. One is an intellectual construct and the other is an experience. Get someone to describe the rush of falling in love -- or the experience of sex, or doing drugs, or surfing, whatever -- and you'll get a glimpse of the shortcomings of our 'engineering style' conversations about an experience that has peculiar, emotional motivations, and contains a lot of fear and non-technical behavior. Having such a small vocabulary to describe the different ways to navigate a corner tends to make all corners seem similar. (As they say, when all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to resemble a nail.)
It's interesting to see all three of these things play out in Rennlist discussions. You get a lot of guys with strong opinions, casually assuming that everyone they're talking to shares their level of experience and comprehension of track driving -- who then inevitably use language in their discussion that would make an outsider think that racing is a lot like doing a math problem.
I think the best way to talk about driving is at speed, over a Chatterbox, in a car with two people who have a good understanding of each others' backgrounds. Second to that would be a face-to-face discussion at the track, hopefully with a good track map and a specific set of goals for the conversation. Further down the list would be these internet discussions.
However, the plus side to these online conversations is that they allow a lot of guys who would never otherwise meet to exchange ideas. They also allow a lot of drivers with vastly different levels of experience to exchange notes. We just have to understand that we're exchanging notes and ideas in a method that also compromises that exchange in some important and difficult-to-see ways.
