AC coupe

Can I get your comments?

Veloce Raptor

I think the commentary there said it all. Street cars are softly sprung, and don't really require constant corrections to keep them on a steady attitude. Race cars (especially an RSR) are rigid as hell, and require all sorts of corrections. They key is to watch the attitude of the car: the driver is very busy keeping the car on the edge, but the car is serene.

AC coupe

you think that the front of that particular car must be extremely stiff and needs to be manhandled into turning or is it more a driving style issue there?

Veloce Raptor

I think both ends of that car are stiff. You see that it is regularly jumping into oversteer. IMO, it has to be driven this way to keep it on the edge.

Ride with any real pro in a full race car, and you will see them do a whole lot of activity behind the wheel while the car remains serene...and they go faster than you could ever imagine!

RickBetterley

What was it that Mario Andretti said about race car driving? Something about constant corrections to stay on the edge of, but not in, a crash (that was not even close to verbatim, but I think it captures the meaning)?

shiners780

Something else to consider when watching in-car videos is the difference between power and manual steering systems, and the resultant difference in steering wheel movement between the two.

Phokaioglaukos

Speaking as a 2-season DE driver, I see a number of in-car videos posted here that some say show poor technique. Then others, who know the driver, contradict that view based, in part it seems to me, on knowledge extrinsic to the video. That leads me to conclude that it can be very hard to tell from just video, good as that is. I'd like to see some chase car POV vdeo at the same time.

Benton

Two things to add: You have to take into consideration the huge difference in setup between the two cars. That Volvo is setup to understeer, understeer, understeer. That alone negates the need for many corrections, as the rear end rarely steps out, even on the limit of traction. While I don't doubt that he is an incredible driver, because he really is, I think he is hacking at the wheel a bit too much in the RSR. Watch someone from a karting background and they will be very busy, yes, but not THAT busy.

Regardless of what I think about his driving, this also shows that there is more than one way to go fast. I think people become too affixed on THE way to drive fast, when there isn't just one way. He is obviously very fast. Jackie Stewart said to never touch the gas until you know you won't have to let back off. He was fast. Senna tap danced with the gas pedal before he floored it. He was fast.

AC coupe

Good point, I did specifically choose him to illustrate my point because his style is SO exaggerated.

chancecasey

+1 to everything said here. This is more of an example on differences between a softer, heavier, pushing car and a stiffer, lighter, looser car. The "boat" has a lot more transition "space" before, at, and beyond the limit, so it's easier to waffle above the limit without losing it and without requiring a lot of steering input. The "race car" has a comparitively much smaller transition between the limit and out-of-control, so requires constant little corrections to stay at the limit and not get too far beyond it. That said, the guy could have been intentionally exaggerating the wheel movements to illustrate a point. I've learned not to read too much into in-car videos without knowing more context - the driver, what he/she was trying to do, the track situation, etc. You could probably shave a little time off the "boat" laps if you payed careful attention to where on the limit you are and make lots of little corrections to stay "on" it and not "over" it also.

The real (and important) difference between DE and race "driving" is that you should never be at 10/10 at a DE. Things beyond your control can and do happen and it feels pretty dumb to be getting towed away from a DE vs. a race. Ask me how I know

mitch236

I think the take home message is that when instructors want smooth, they are talking about the car, not the inputs. Good drivers are making constant corrections but the car remains smooth regarding weight transfers.

AC coupe

I've added a couple of new embedded videos to the above post.

one is from the same race, different car, and the other is Kaufmann driving on another occasion...( now I know why the Volvo..)

enjoy

JackOlsen

This is another issue where the experience level of the driver plays a huge role. Michael Schumacher and Mr. Average-Joe-in-his-year-of-track-driving are facing a completely different set of steering issues when they get into the seat of even a production car. With a DE, you're usually teaching students to get a handle on more precise inputs as they get a better and better handle on what their car will do when they do a particular thing with the steering wheel. You encourage a smooth, set steering wheel position in a corner because it will help them avoid a novice's tendency to hunt for the right input by either overdoing it or underdoing it, then correcting, then re-correcting, etc. You're training a set of basic (and what will become automatic) skills of having a feel for how much steering input will produce how much change in the car's path. You're also training them to look at the corner itself in a different way than they're accustomed to from street driving.

And they learn it slowly. And they have to repeat, and repeat, and repeat as they gradually improve their technique, and un-learn some of their street driving habits. It takes time.

Eventually, they'll be maintaining enough cornering speed so that slip angle is a factor in navigating turns. And as they get closer and closer to that narrow zone of where the tires are actually maxing out their ability to hold the car, you start to get to a different point -- where both the difference between rear and front grip is a factor, and also where the amount the tire carcass is being twisted in different parts of a corner is a factor. At this point, you start to reach a point where sawing the wheel a little becomes part of a strategy to smooth out the overall path of the car, and also where it becomes a technique to change the amount of carcass deformation as a way to increase (and sometimes reduce) grip as you learn to max out and otherwise manage cornering speeds more effectively.

The danger is a beginner watching an advanced driver's wheel motion and assuming that the advanced driver is having the same problems with precision in his steering input that the beginner will have. The advanced driver is not sawing the wheel to find the right path through the corner -- he's dancing along the razor's edge of his tires' capabilities.

And of course, the rest of us are somewhere in between those two points.

Other factors have already been pointed out here. A pre-1990 930 with no power steering and the factory spacers in front and wide, sticky front tires will have a lot of kick to the wheel that's coming straight from the steering rack, not from the driver. It'll make it look like the driver is using the wheel to fight for traction under heavy braking, when in fact the movement is coming from the wheels, not going to them. Less compliant suspensions will increase this effect. I do some sawing in some corners, but my videos will make it look like I do much more of it -- that's because I've got no power steering and a widened front track.

bobt993

The volvo lap at the ring shows the understeering nature of the Volvo. He does keep pretty smooth through the two constant radius turns in Hatzenbach with only a little saw before setting the car in a drift. Similar in my 330 when we did a Euro delivery in August 06. Difference the 330 can rotate on the power much better. Into Adenaur, his line was strange, early to the inside on the lefter, should be wide follow the curbing and compromise that corner. Downhill section into Breidscheid bridge was way early, later on the first turn, striaghten out the second. He keep the tires squeeling pretty consistently in the turn so he's pretty smooth while driving a boat.

The mini that caught him blew by me on the uphill on the way to the Karussel. It had R tires and an NSX engine in it. I was told it is the original "Ring Taxi".

Can't comment to well on the RSR drive since my beast is a D-Stock car. I did own a Volvo S60 prior and I felt sorry for him having to drive that pig around the ring.

Greg Fishman

The main issue I have with that guy behind the wheel of the RSR is that the drivers are going to be worn out if this is a 24 hour race. The guy appears to be fighting the car and I wonder if there is a set up issue going on? I have ridden with pros and while they are very active, this driver seems to be on the extreme end of things.

Doesn't mean this guy isn't fast or anything, just doubting that this set up or driving style is optimal.

A few years ago there was a guy in a World Challenge Touring BMW, he was top runner but his techinique was far from orthodox. He literally drove with one hand on the steering wheel and the other on the gear shift. It worked for him but certainly was sub optimal in my book.