Another PCCB story
09-08-2003, 05:51 PM
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Another PCCB story
I apologize for the lengthy posting……
I wanted to share this with anyone considering PCCB. I had the rare opportunity of testing 2 cars side by side (a 2002 GT2 with PCCB and stock pads as well as the green race pads against a 2001 Twin Turbo with stock brakes except for pagid orange pads. I don’t profess to have any mechanical knowledge – but I believe that I have some common sense and I pursued this issue in a proper way.
Purchased the GT2 new on August 26, 2002
When I purchased my GT2 I fully had intentions to use the car on both the street and for Driver’s Education classes (on the track). The reason I purchased the GT2 is because, at that time, it was advertised as THE hottest street legal car Porsche had ever built. A large drawing factor was that this car was equipped with the new Ceramic Composite Brakes (PCCB). All the advertisements I read stated that the brakes would never wear out, would last the life of the car, would never “fade”, that they weighed less, stopped faster, etc. I was previously unable to get Ceramic Brakes with our Turbo because, even though it was listed as an option, we were told that “they were not available on the Turbo”. I soon learned that the only thing that was true about these PCCB brakes was that they weighed less.
In October of 2002 I took the car to Watkins Glen for a Driver’s Education event. I brought the GT2 and our 2001 Twin Turbo and I was looking forward to testing it out. While going around the track I noticed that with the GT2 there was a slight brake fade on a couple of the turns. Because the weather was cold I thought perhaps the brakes had not warmed up enough. After being sure that the brakes were hot I was going down the back strait, hit my brakes hard for the chicane turn, and actually shot past the turn and into a cone because the brakes did not work – there was significant brake fade. (The cone put some scratches on the car and it cost me $800 to refinish it). Before I left the Glen I wanted to try the same thing again, as a carefully planned test, and again I went straight past the chicane turn because the brakes failed again (however, I anticipated the failure and didn’t hit any cones this time).
When I got back home I started researching this issue. I didn’t know what the cause was – and I didn’t know who to talk to. The Porsche dealership said there were no issues with the brakes what-so-ever and all the materials I read said how great the brakes were. I had a feeling that I had become a guinea pig and that I was one of the first people to really test out these brakes. So I contacted a number of senior instructors in our club and they gave me many suggestions on who to contact.
After numerous call I finally was directed to call Andreas Boehm (Pagid Motorsports Race Engineering Support) and he said that “Although Pagid is the OE brake pad supplier for the GT2’s Ceramic brake we are not authorized for the time being to give any recommendations about the PCCB brake”. Andreas said that I should speak with Alwin Springer (Porsche Motor Sports) or Eric Bloss.
*********************************************************
February 2003 I sent this note to Alwin Springer of Porsche Motor Sports
"I recently purchased a new 2002 GT2 and the car is used almost exclusively for track events I've noticed that the stock pads did not work well on the track and I’m trying to resolve this issue. The GT2 has the ceramic brakes and is totally stock except for hoosier tires.
While driving the car at Watkins Glen (the weather was about 40 degrees this past
October) at the end of the back strait I would hit the brakes hard (going about 160-165 mph) and the ABS did not kick in.....the tires did not lock up.....and I just continued rolling forward...slowing down....but not very fast (it was as if the breaks had not been warm). I should note that I had run a few laps to warm up the brakes before doing this.
I then took my 2001 twin turbo out to the same spot, at about the same speed, and it stopped on a dime - everytime (the turbo has pagid orange pads but everything else is stock).
Any suggestions? Any pads for this application? I’m hoping that I won’t have to replace the entire brake system to achieve proper performance."
Note: Alwin called me back and informed me that the brakes DID NOT work well when they were heated up. He also told me that Porsche had just released 2 other types of brake pads for the car to try and resolve this problem… so now there were 3 types (street pad, sport pad, and race pad – I had been using the sport pad)
*********************************************************
This was quite a surprise to me but after learning about the “new” race pads I immediately ordered a set.
After a couple of DE events, with the new green race pads, I can honestly report that my 2001 Turbo will still stop more consistently and faster than the GT2. I verified this with a number of instructors who also drove both of our cars.
In August of 2003 I was at Watkins Glen – with brand new green “race” pads on the GT2 and new pagid orange pads on the Turbo. Both cars were driven about the same amount of time and at the same levels of speed. When we pulled the tires to check the pads the Turbo had almost 2/3 of the material left – but the GT2 had worn down to shreds of pad material. Not only had the GT2 pads worn down completely – but we noticed that the rotors were becoming pitted and ceramic material was “flaking” out of the rotor. At this point I didn’t want to drive the car any longer because I was concerned that the rotor could potentially shatter (being ceramic).
After returning from the Glen in August we took the car to Brandywine Porsche to get the rotors replaced – assuming that warranty or common sense would apply here – (having only 1700 miles on the vehicle from new) – but the service manager said that since I had taken it to the track it would not be covered. They then proposed that I get the 2 (not four) front rotors and pads replaced at a cost of $17,940.00 (and I have the quote).
After some recent browsing through Rennteam.com (Porsche technical discussion forum) I found this remark posted on June 11, 2003 in regards to PCCB performance – although I can’t verify if this is correct – it sounds to be true.
*********************************************************
Rennteam.com June 11, 2003
“Here's PMNA's answer:
The PCCB brakes are suitable for race track usage, but you have to change
the pads to PAGID P50-RS14 (green). These pads are available from PMNA.
Please contact Phoebe in the parts department directly.
The estimated lifetime of the PCCB rotors is about 1500 miles. Please check
the rotors and pads periodically.”
(1500 MILES!!!!!!! Not the 185,000 miles that they listed in Christophorus Magazine, not the “allow a brake disc to last as long as the car itself” as listed in Porsche’s literature about PCCB. Obviously I, and a few select other individuals, learned this well after we had purchased our cars.)
**********************************************************
Here are some quotes about the brakes that I read.
**********************************************************
Autoweek, July 10, 2002.
"The new Porsche Ceramic Composite Brakes were only slightly less awe-inspiring, bringing the GT2 from 60 mph to a stop in 114 feet. Had this been any other car we would have enthused about that figure, but in the rarified air of this supercar we were hoping for a sub-100-foot figure. The Z06 still holds the record at 105 feet from 60, followed by the BMW Z8 and 911 Turbo at 109 and 110 feet, respectively."
(As illustrated here in the tests they performed – the very expensive Ceramic Brakes did not stop the lighter GT2 as quickly as the heavier less expensive Turbo brakes).
**********************************************************
Porsche Panorama, April 2001
"In use, these are brakes with no sense of humor, and somewhere in the owner’s manual it better say “don’t put your foot on the brakes unless you look in the rear view mirror first.” There might also need to be a word about having enough air in your lungs to go without breathing for a while during operation of the ceramic seizers. They are nevertheless quite linear and controllable, with sometimes a little pad squeak, but surprising little dust. They are reported to be very durable – as in forever – but be prepared to buy pads a bit more often."
(“very durable – as in forever” Since when is 1700 miles “forever”).
**********************************************************
Porsche Christophorus Magazine April/May 2001
"In the test program, the ceramic disks and Brembo calipers have withstood twenty such hard braking cycles from 250 km/h (155 mph) to 100 km/h (62 mph) without any decrease in braking effectiveness. And with somewhat more sensible use, the silicon-carbide discs should last 300,000 kilometers (185,000 miles)."
(All of a sudden Porsche is now quoting 1500 miles?????)
**********************************************************
Porsche Cars North America, Inc. 2000 911 Turbo Literature:
"Porsche Ceramic Composite Brakes: Strong enough to stop time. (Or, at least, wear and tear)
Once again, Porsche has stopped conventional thinking in its tracks by being the first to offer a revolutionary new ceramic brake disc as an option on the new 911 Turbo. Called Porsche Ceramic Composite Brakes (PCCB), this new technology shatters benchmarks in every respect.
While it’s dimensions are similar, a ceramic brake disc weighs 50 percent less than its cast-iron counterpart, reducing unsprung weight by 44lts for improved handling. Armed with new composite metal linings, ceramic brakes maintain their frictional coefficient regardless of temperature for the ultimate in fade-free stopping power. Cross-drilled discs and water resistant brake linings ensure equally superior performance in wet weather.
PCCB technology achieves immediate emergency braking without having to stomp on the brake pedal. It’s service life is every bit as effortless: the ceramic’s hard surface and corrosion-free properties allow a brake disc to last as long as the car itself. Which, for a Porsche, is a long time indeed."
(“shatters benchmarks in every respect” Which benchmarks – the brakes fade when hot, wear out many times faster than other systems, cost many times more, and don’t brake as well – are they talking about benchmarks going the wrong way? This brake system DID NOT “maintain it’s frictional coefficient regardless of temperature for the ultimate in fade-free stopping power” as I demonstrated at Watkins Glen).
**********************************************************
Suncoast Motors – on their website:
"The 911 GT2 comes with the most effective braking system ever featured on a production Porsche: the Porsche Ceramic Composite Brake (PCCB). This is a powerful new technology designed to cope with even the most extreme conditions on racetrack and road.
At the heart of the new technology is a ceramic brake disc made of specially treated carbon fibre silicated in a high-vacuum process at approximately 1,700 şC. The PCCB disc is cross-drilled and internally vented, and is approximately 50% lighter than conventional alternatives. Since this weight is unsprung, i.e., not supported by the suspension, PCCB automatically improves agility and handling. Another feature of the system is the innovative new composite brake pad, which combines with the ceramic disc to deliver extremely high and constant levels of friction under braking. By replacing conventional metal components with composite pads and discs, temperature is no longer a factor in brake performance. This configuration not only helps minimise braking distances - particularly under heavy use - it also ensures safer deceleration from high speed thanks to improved fade resistance.
In an emergency stop, PCCB immediately delivers maximum stopping power to the road. Abrasion is extremely low compared with metal discs, with each PCCB disc offering a service life of approximately 300,000 km. The new composite brake pads also last around twice as long as conventional ones. What's more, the new PCCB pads do not absorb water, making for outstanding performance in the wet.
This kit is the complete retro-fit kit for a Turbo 996 or Carrera 4S. This kit includes all of the necessary parts for the installation.
Call for more information, and freight pricing. Retail price is $14,000."
Suncoast is offering the full set of PCCB for $12,995.95 (I wonder if that set includes 4 versus the 2 rotors that Brandywine quoted me $18K for)
**********************************************************
If I spend more time looking around I can guarantee that I will find other articles, many of which were published by Porsche, that state that these brakes are the best money can buy.
I don’t know if this issue should fall under warranty, defective parts, or false advertising but as far as I’m concerned when I spend $190K on a vehicle that’s advertised as an outstanding high performance vehicle, with brakes that are beyond compare, and those brakes wear out within 1700 miles, and Porsche wants me to pay $18K to replace two rotors (and I’ll still face the same problems because the PCCB brakes will not last), something is clearly wrong here.
I don’t feel that this should happen and I am pursuing this issue further. If anyone has questions please send me an email at reynolds@erols.com.
I wanted to share this with anyone considering PCCB. I had the rare opportunity of testing 2 cars side by side (a 2002 GT2 with PCCB and stock pads as well as the green race pads against a 2001 Twin Turbo with stock brakes except for pagid orange pads. I don’t profess to have any mechanical knowledge – but I believe that I have some common sense and I pursued this issue in a proper way.
Purchased the GT2 new on August 26, 2002
When I purchased my GT2 I fully had intentions to use the car on both the street and for Driver’s Education classes (on the track). The reason I purchased the GT2 is because, at that time, it was advertised as THE hottest street legal car Porsche had ever built. A large drawing factor was that this car was equipped with the new Ceramic Composite Brakes (PCCB). All the advertisements I read stated that the brakes would never wear out, would last the life of the car, would never “fade”, that they weighed less, stopped faster, etc. I was previously unable to get Ceramic Brakes with our Turbo because, even though it was listed as an option, we were told that “they were not available on the Turbo”. I soon learned that the only thing that was true about these PCCB brakes was that they weighed less.
In October of 2002 I took the car to Watkins Glen for a Driver’s Education event. I brought the GT2 and our 2001 Twin Turbo and I was looking forward to testing it out. While going around the track I noticed that with the GT2 there was a slight brake fade on a couple of the turns. Because the weather was cold I thought perhaps the brakes had not warmed up enough. After being sure that the brakes were hot I was going down the back strait, hit my brakes hard for the chicane turn, and actually shot past the turn and into a cone because the brakes did not work – there was significant brake fade. (The cone put some scratches on the car and it cost me $800 to refinish it). Before I left the Glen I wanted to try the same thing again, as a carefully planned test, and again I went straight past the chicane turn because the brakes failed again (however, I anticipated the failure and didn’t hit any cones this time).
When I got back home I started researching this issue. I didn’t know what the cause was – and I didn’t know who to talk to. The Porsche dealership said there were no issues with the brakes what-so-ever and all the materials I read said how great the brakes were. I had a feeling that I had become a guinea pig and that I was one of the first people to really test out these brakes. So I contacted a number of senior instructors in our club and they gave me many suggestions on who to contact.
After numerous call I finally was directed to call Andreas Boehm (Pagid Motorsports Race Engineering Support) and he said that “Although Pagid is the OE brake pad supplier for the GT2’s Ceramic brake we are not authorized for the time being to give any recommendations about the PCCB brake”. Andreas said that I should speak with Alwin Springer (Porsche Motor Sports) or Eric Bloss.
*********************************************************
February 2003 I sent this note to Alwin Springer of Porsche Motor Sports
"I recently purchased a new 2002 GT2 and the car is used almost exclusively for track events I've noticed that the stock pads did not work well on the track and I’m trying to resolve this issue. The GT2 has the ceramic brakes and is totally stock except for hoosier tires.
While driving the car at Watkins Glen (the weather was about 40 degrees this past
October) at the end of the back strait I would hit the brakes hard (going about 160-165 mph) and the ABS did not kick in.....the tires did not lock up.....and I just continued rolling forward...slowing down....but not very fast (it was as if the breaks had not been warm). I should note that I had run a few laps to warm up the brakes before doing this.
I then took my 2001 twin turbo out to the same spot, at about the same speed, and it stopped on a dime - everytime (the turbo has pagid orange pads but everything else is stock).
Any suggestions? Any pads for this application? I’m hoping that I won’t have to replace the entire brake system to achieve proper performance."
Note: Alwin called me back and informed me that the brakes DID NOT work well when they were heated up. He also told me that Porsche had just released 2 other types of brake pads for the car to try and resolve this problem… so now there were 3 types (street pad, sport pad, and race pad – I had been using the sport pad)
*********************************************************
This was quite a surprise to me but after learning about the “new” race pads I immediately ordered a set.
After a couple of DE events, with the new green race pads, I can honestly report that my 2001 Turbo will still stop more consistently and faster than the GT2. I verified this with a number of instructors who also drove both of our cars.
In August of 2003 I was at Watkins Glen – with brand new green “race” pads on the GT2 and new pagid orange pads on the Turbo. Both cars were driven about the same amount of time and at the same levels of speed. When we pulled the tires to check the pads the Turbo had almost 2/3 of the material left – but the GT2 had worn down to shreds of pad material. Not only had the GT2 pads worn down completely – but we noticed that the rotors were becoming pitted and ceramic material was “flaking” out of the rotor. At this point I didn’t want to drive the car any longer because I was concerned that the rotor could potentially shatter (being ceramic).
After returning from the Glen in August we took the car to Brandywine Porsche to get the rotors replaced – assuming that warranty or common sense would apply here – (having only 1700 miles on the vehicle from new) – but the service manager said that since I had taken it to the track it would not be covered. They then proposed that I get the 2 (not four) front rotors and pads replaced at a cost of $17,940.00 (and I have the quote).
After some recent browsing through Rennteam.com (Porsche technical discussion forum) I found this remark posted on June 11, 2003 in regards to PCCB performance – although I can’t verify if this is correct – it sounds to be true.
*********************************************************
Rennteam.com June 11, 2003
“Here's PMNA's answer:
The PCCB brakes are suitable for race track usage, but you have to change
the pads to PAGID P50-RS14 (green). These pads are available from PMNA.
Please contact Phoebe in the parts department directly.
The estimated lifetime of the PCCB rotors is about 1500 miles. Please check
the rotors and pads periodically.”
(1500 MILES!!!!!!! Not the 185,000 miles that they listed in Christophorus Magazine, not the “allow a brake disc to last as long as the car itself” as listed in Porsche’s literature about PCCB. Obviously I, and a few select other individuals, learned this well after we had purchased our cars.)
**********************************************************
Here are some quotes about the brakes that I read.
**********************************************************
Autoweek, July 10, 2002.
"The new Porsche Ceramic Composite Brakes were only slightly less awe-inspiring, bringing the GT2 from 60 mph to a stop in 114 feet. Had this been any other car we would have enthused about that figure, but in the rarified air of this supercar we were hoping for a sub-100-foot figure. The Z06 still holds the record at 105 feet from 60, followed by the BMW Z8 and 911 Turbo at 109 and 110 feet, respectively."
(As illustrated here in the tests they performed – the very expensive Ceramic Brakes did not stop the lighter GT2 as quickly as the heavier less expensive Turbo brakes).
**********************************************************
Porsche Panorama, April 2001
"In use, these are brakes with no sense of humor, and somewhere in the owner’s manual it better say “don’t put your foot on the brakes unless you look in the rear view mirror first.” There might also need to be a word about having enough air in your lungs to go without breathing for a while during operation of the ceramic seizers. They are nevertheless quite linear and controllable, with sometimes a little pad squeak, but surprising little dust. They are reported to be very durable – as in forever – but be prepared to buy pads a bit more often."
(“very durable – as in forever” Since when is 1700 miles “forever”).
**********************************************************
Porsche Christophorus Magazine April/May 2001
"In the test program, the ceramic disks and Brembo calipers have withstood twenty such hard braking cycles from 250 km/h (155 mph) to 100 km/h (62 mph) without any decrease in braking effectiveness. And with somewhat more sensible use, the silicon-carbide discs should last 300,000 kilometers (185,000 miles)."
(All of a sudden Porsche is now quoting 1500 miles?????)
**********************************************************
Porsche Cars North America, Inc. 2000 911 Turbo Literature:
"Porsche Ceramic Composite Brakes: Strong enough to stop time. (Or, at least, wear and tear)
Once again, Porsche has stopped conventional thinking in its tracks by being the first to offer a revolutionary new ceramic brake disc as an option on the new 911 Turbo. Called Porsche Ceramic Composite Brakes (PCCB), this new technology shatters benchmarks in every respect.
While it’s dimensions are similar, a ceramic brake disc weighs 50 percent less than its cast-iron counterpart, reducing unsprung weight by 44lts for improved handling. Armed with new composite metal linings, ceramic brakes maintain their frictional coefficient regardless of temperature for the ultimate in fade-free stopping power. Cross-drilled discs and water resistant brake linings ensure equally superior performance in wet weather.
PCCB technology achieves immediate emergency braking without having to stomp on the brake pedal. It’s service life is every bit as effortless: the ceramic’s hard surface and corrosion-free properties allow a brake disc to last as long as the car itself. Which, for a Porsche, is a long time indeed."
(“shatters benchmarks in every respect” Which benchmarks – the brakes fade when hot, wear out many times faster than other systems, cost many times more, and don’t brake as well – are they talking about benchmarks going the wrong way? This brake system DID NOT “maintain it’s frictional coefficient regardless of temperature for the ultimate in fade-free stopping power” as I demonstrated at Watkins Glen).
**********************************************************
Suncoast Motors – on their website:
"The 911 GT2 comes with the most effective braking system ever featured on a production Porsche: the Porsche Ceramic Composite Brake (PCCB). This is a powerful new technology designed to cope with even the most extreme conditions on racetrack and road.
At the heart of the new technology is a ceramic brake disc made of specially treated carbon fibre silicated in a high-vacuum process at approximately 1,700 şC. The PCCB disc is cross-drilled and internally vented, and is approximately 50% lighter than conventional alternatives. Since this weight is unsprung, i.e., not supported by the suspension, PCCB automatically improves agility and handling. Another feature of the system is the innovative new composite brake pad, which combines with the ceramic disc to deliver extremely high and constant levels of friction under braking. By replacing conventional metal components with composite pads and discs, temperature is no longer a factor in brake performance. This configuration not only helps minimise braking distances - particularly under heavy use - it also ensures safer deceleration from high speed thanks to improved fade resistance.
In an emergency stop, PCCB immediately delivers maximum stopping power to the road. Abrasion is extremely low compared with metal discs, with each PCCB disc offering a service life of approximately 300,000 km. The new composite brake pads also last around twice as long as conventional ones. What's more, the new PCCB pads do not absorb water, making for outstanding performance in the wet.
This kit is the complete retro-fit kit for a Turbo 996 or Carrera 4S. This kit includes all of the necessary parts for the installation.
Call for more information, and freight pricing. Retail price is $14,000."
Suncoast is offering the full set of PCCB for $12,995.95 (I wonder if that set includes 4 versus the 2 rotors that Brandywine quoted me $18K for)
**********************************************************
If I spend more time looking around I can guarantee that I will find other articles, many of which were published by Porsche, that state that these brakes are the best money can buy.
I don’t know if this issue should fall under warranty, defective parts, or false advertising but as far as I’m concerned when I spend $190K on a vehicle that’s advertised as an outstanding high performance vehicle, with brakes that are beyond compare, and those brakes wear out within 1700 miles, and Porsche wants me to pay $18K to replace two rotors (and I’ll still face the same problems because the PCCB brakes will not last), something is clearly wrong here.
I don’t feel that this should happen and I am pursuing this issue further. If anyone has questions please send me an email at reynolds@erols.com.
09-08-2003, 06:12 PM
#2
Burning Brakes
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I just ordered a GT3 a couple weeks ago with the PCCB. The salesman showed me an article about the GT2 with more aparently false claims in some kind of sales manual he had. I had him photocopy it for me, if you'd like I fax you a copy to add to your collection of aparent misinformation.
09-08-2003, 06:27 PM
#4
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What a Bummer!!
I can't believe Porsche would release sub-par brakes like that!!
Where is the exhaustive testing Porsche is known for? Where is quality control?
I think you should take the car to another dealer and have them fix it under warranty.
Where is the exhaustive testing Porsche is known for? Where is quality control?
I think you should take the car to another dealer and have them fix it under warranty.
09-08-2003, 06:36 PM
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Burning Brakes
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I just sent it. Let me know if that is one you had or not.
I choose to order the PCCB brakes based on three things...
1.) Salesman assurances
2.) Unsprung weight advantage
3.) The assumption (perhaps incorrect) that it will be a positive thing for resale value on this limited production car and that I can retrofit cast iron if need be.
I have been following the issue and it seems like half the things I read are from others with expiriences just like yours and the others are people that say they have no problems at all. I'm not quite sure what to think about the whole thing anymore. I don't doubt your expirience but it just seems so hard to believe comming from Porsche.
Please keep me updated on new developments. Thanks.
Brian
I choose to order the PCCB brakes based on three things...
1.) Salesman assurances
2.) Unsprung weight advantage
3.) The assumption (perhaps incorrect) that it will be a positive thing for resale value on this limited production car and that I can retrofit cast iron if need be.
I have been following the issue and it seems like half the things I read are from others with expiriences just like yours and the others are people that say they have no problems at all. I'm not quite sure what to think about the whole thing anymore. I don't doubt your expirience but it just seems so hard to believe comming from Porsche.
Please keep me updated on new developments. Thanks.
Brian
09-08-2003, 07:20 PM
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Can you not just get some steel rotors to replace the ceramic ones? It may not be the most desirable solution but you wouldn't have to worry about the brakes when you track the care.
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09-08-2003, 07:40 PM
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Can't offer any help, but this is one of the most interesting posts I've read and hope you will keep us informed on how PCNA handles this issue. You sound pretty calm considering the investment and the expectations Porsche literature has led us all to have for the PCCB system. Personally, I would have been pretty hot with the folks at Brandywine!
Best of luck and I would hope that PCNA resolves the issue equitably. How they handle it will say a lot to all of us about the company.
Best of luck and I would hope that PCNA resolves the issue equitably. How they handle it will say a lot to all of us about the company.
09-08-2003, 07:54 PM
#10
Burning Brakes
What I don't understand is how Porsche test drivers can be going around the Nurburgring in 7 minutes with these brakes and you can't get them to work for a DE.
Not to be offensive, but how much driving experience do you have? The reason I ask is because if you are not an expert it is easy to overuse the brakes and overheat them. Any brakes can be blown out this way.
Not to be offensive, but how much driving experience do you have? The reason I ask is because if you are not an expert it is easy to overuse the brakes and overheat them. Any brakes can be blown out this way.
09-08-2003, 08:00 PM
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Since I plan on continuing DE events - I am installing a new set of brembo monoblock 6 piston calipers and steel rotors. Even if Porsche replaces the ceramic rotors I won't be using them because I can't afford to replace them every 1500 miles or so.
I'll let everyone know how this progresses.
I'll let everyone know how this progresses.
09-08-2003, 08:02 PM
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I certainly agree that I AM NOT AN EXPERT - but I did have some experts confirm my results first hand - they tested both cars numerous times at the track.
09-08-2003, 08:52 PM
#13
Three Wheelin'
That all sounds in line with what I have heard elsewhere. If they were so great, how come they are not on the cup car or the GT3RS race cars? They are a cool gimmick but the technology is not there yet. I also heard there is a battle between PAG and its supplier about the design and functionality of these units.
09-08-2003, 09:47 PM
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"I choose to order the PCCB brakes based on three things...
1.) Salesman assurances
2.) Unsprung weight advantage
3.) The assumption (perhaps incorrect) that it will be a positive thing for resale value on this limited production car and that I can retrofit cast iron if need be. "
relying on #1 when a commision to the $8k option is attached is probably not a good idea.
#2 can be achieved via Brembo in two piece steel rotors for just about the same amount of money (actually less once you sell your stock GT3 brakes that get replaced after you take delivery of the car).
#3 would seem to be just the opposite as the facts about these crappy brakes and there very high replacement cost become more available. it shouldn't take long before the resale on a PCCB equipped porsche declines by the cost of replacing the brakes with decent quality ones which last more than a few track events.
"I have been following the issue and it seems like half the things I read are from others with expiriences just like yours and the others are people that say they have no problems at all."
fwiw, i too have been following this and it would seem to me the overwhelming weight of feedback on the PCCB is that they suck a$$.
1.) Salesman assurances
2.) Unsprung weight advantage
3.) The assumption (perhaps incorrect) that it will be a positive thing for resale value on this limited production car and that I can retrofit cast iron if need be. "
relying on #1 when a commision to the $8k option is attached is probably not a good idea.
#2 can be achieved via Brembo in two piece steel rotors for just about the same amount of money (actually less once you sell your stock GT3 brakes that get replaced after you take delivery of the car).
#3 would seem to be just the opposite as the facts about these crappy brakes and there very high replacement cost become more available. it shouldn't take long before the resale on a PCCB equipped porsche declines by the cost of replacing the brakes with decent quality ones which last more than a few track events.
"I have been following the issue and it seems like half the things I read are from others with expiriences just like yours and the others are people that say they have no problems at all."
fwiw, i too have been following this and it would seem to me the overwhelming weight of feedback on the PCCB is that they suck a$$.
Last edited by ben in lj; 09-08-2003 at 10:07 PM.
09-08-2003, 09:53 PM
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" ... concerned that the rotor could potentially shatter (being ceramic)."
Has this really happened, that is shattered?
" .. we noticed that the rotors were becoming pitted and ceramic material was flaking out of the rotor."
Would this not be normal wear? Where the fibers missing or where they lifting up?
Has this really happened, that is shattered?
" .. we noticed that the rotors were becoming pitted and ceramic material was flaking out of the rotor."
Would this not be normal wear? Where the fibers missing or where they lifting up?