Streak

I assume everyone has seen the suggestion to allow Gen2 Boxsters at a heavier weight.

The premise is "heavier" racers can't get the existing cars down to spec weight. For the record I'm a few pounds above ideal myself.

First question I have for everyone is who's car has ever been called to scales and weighed 2650 pounds?

Second question is how much weight are the "heavier" drivers trying to get out of their cars?

My experience has been that everyone complains about the spec weight so it's not limited to "heavier" drivers. My car usually weighs 2680-2720. Which scale makes a difference. Aside from utterly screwing everyone with 2.5 liter cars (who wants a 2.5 if the 2.7 is legal? Good luck selling your car) the result will be that the 2.7 cars with "heavier" drivers will have a big advantage. A 2.7 at 2720 is going to beat my 2.5 liter at 2720. A 2.7 at 2750 is going to beat my car. Porsche doesn't introduce new model years of their line up to be slower than the previous car after all. In street trim the 2.5 makes 201 hp while the 2.7 makes 217-225 depending on year. The later models get to 60 .5 seconds quicker than the 2.5 liter. That advantage in acceleration is significant. And depending on the options the 2000-2004 cars can be 33 pounds lighter or a mere 11 pounds heavier. This shifts the "herculean" effort to reduce weight to everyone in a 2.5 liter car because running at 2700+ will no longer be competitive as it is now.

At a track like NJMP it might not be as demonstrative but at WG or VIR or similar it will be a distinct advantage.

It has also been my experience when I raced with NASA in a pure power to weight class that the heavier cars with more horsepower dominated.

For giggles let's use 2650 and the factory horsepower number of 201 for a power to weight of 13.2. To keep that same ratio an early 2.7 will need to be 2864 pounds and a later 2.7 would need to be 2970. That's more than those cars weighed on the showroom floor. I seriously doubt Walt is thinking of 3000 pound Spec Boxsters.

​​​​​​​And what effect does this have on E Class Boxsters? The 2000-2004 car are classed in E now. Does PCA need to keep poaching E cars until there are none left?

The "heavier" driver argument can be made in every class.

And the "car availability" angle? Is there one? We are the biggest class by far across the country and getting bigger. I haven't raced in a field of less than 20 cars in a couple years.

Not sure why PCA seems to keep wanting to mess with a formula that is working.

mmuller

This is the first I have seen of this. Like you, I am not sure why they need to let in 2.7 cars. It’s more than just motor. Gearing is different, there is 25% more welds in the body making it stiffer and I think even the brakes changed. Plus, the engine electronics where improved and the introduction of better and more widely available PSM.

‘there are plenty of 2.5 cars out there. I just don’t see the need. Where can I vote against this?

spg993tt

tons of parts available, tons of motors out there. i bought a factory new motor last year for 6500.
i see no reason for that change. Call is SPB2 or whatever the heck, but leave SPB alone. you have 20, to 30 + cars in a field, you're going to risk those folks going elsewhere. leaving them in a bind, and maybe they opt for cayman or something else if they have to scrap the class.
just create a new class for the gen2. but just from a numbers perspectie, why mess with it at all? foolish.
if folks building new cars want into spb, just go buy the 5000 donor 2.5 donors and build with that. you want a better motor, go buy a crate motor for 6500 and have at it.

Streak

It's in Walt's column in the current Club racing News. I just got it today. It will be up for discussion for 2022 apparently

mmuller

Ok. It arrived the other day but didn’t have time to open and look before the last surgery. Will take a read and make sure I drop Walt a note afterwards.

KevinA

Yeah, just a bad idea.

Create a separate class with the second generation Boxster if they really think that is necessary. There still seem to be lots of cars and parts available.

My vote is keep SPB as it is.

aualexa2

I don't think Walt suggested this bc of heavier racers getting their car down to weight. I think this idea arose during an email conversation I had with him re: transmission failures in the 2.5L cars. We discussed making the transmissions from the later 2.7L cars legal. Walt did all the calculations and found that the 2.7 transmission would be taller in all gears (after factoring in the taller ring and pinion in the 2.7 gearbox). He then suggested letting the 2.7L cars into the class but with a weight penalty to off set their taller gearing and increased power.

Streak

From the article as written by Walt:

"Here are two approaches to dealing with transmission issues, accommodating heavy drivers, and increasing car availability"

And later:

"2) Allow the 2.7 liter Boxsters to run in SPB at a higher weight. This, again, should extend the life span of the class, and give heavier racers an option without Herculean efforts to shave every pound off under the rules."

Every aspect of this is flawed reasoning. I'd rather rebuild 2.5 trans than let 2.7 boxes into the class.

Maybe work with GT Gears or something to make a stronger 4th as a replacement when it does go.

PGas32

I can't think of a single reason to mess with SPB - it's some of the tightest racing in PCA, and I've never heard a single person say they wish the 2.7L's could come play.

As far as the tranny's go...I've never blown one (har har) but people complain that they're getting harder to find and prices are going up. Seems like the going rate is $800-1000ish, which is maybe a couple hundred bucks more than what they used to go for...spread over let's say 50 hours, that's nothing.

Please just leave it alone

EDIT: I can't get down to minimum weight either - consistently between 20-70 pounds heavy, depending on the scales

good hands

Seems that every time PCA changes rules they screw up a class. E class was near perfect with 20+ cars a weekend but nooooo.... we needed 911 cup and a tire war. Sorry The people who make the decisions on rules need to go. Change for sake of change seems to be the norm.

mmuller

If it’s about trnamissions, just allow a spec rebuild to be introduced. Problem solved. Gearing checks that are already done will ensure parity remains and the class continues to be a great class.

They let 2.7 cars in and the class is done. My car was consistently 100lbs over. 2.7 car would need to be 2950 to 3000 minimum to even make it work.

Streak

And giving the 2.7 Boxsters another class to run in will poach them from E.

jdistefa

Wait, doesn't Hunt already have a 2.7?

lowside67

That is because tire size is not regulated in NASA TT/ST classes so the more power, heavier car can run larger tires to offset the additional weight.
If the lighter car and heavier car both run the same size tire, as they would in SPB, the heavier car will brake worse and turn worse than the lighter one but be offset by the fact that it will out-accelerate the equal power to weight lighter car as speeds get higher, due to aero drag. We deal with this in the Prototype class I participate with - we run 1400lb cars against 1100lb cars with power to weights that are very similar; the net result is at Road America, the heavy cars run away from the light ones at the far end of the big straights, and then the light ones catch them in the brake zone and carry more corner speed. It's a different way to run but doesn't make for bad racing.
-Mark

Streak

Tire size isn't the only factor

And it does make for bad racing in a spec series where all the cars are supposed to be nearly identical

We've all been stuck behind faster cars on better tires that beat you to the next corner. Or if you happen to pass them they just pass you back on the straight.

Not the point of SPB.

And why introduce that situation to a class that is not struggling for car counts?

Gen2 cars are faster. They simply are. That's why gen2 cars are class up in the letter classes from the gen 1 cars.