Pokerhobo

ipse dixit

I am not sure Porsche even benchmarks their EV against Tesla, much less pay attention to them.

This is sort of like asking if Mercedes is going to respond to Toyota making a faster Camry.

bdoviack

Actually the Taycan was tested / benchmarked against the Model S during development. Here is some info and video:

https://insideevs.com/news/340653/po...-stelvio-pass/

Direct Video Link:

ipse dixit

Porsche tested the Taycan against a lot of EVs on the market at that time.

But that’s different than benchmarking a car against them.

If Porsche really was benchmarking the Taycan against a Model S or 3, they’d have better stated range to begin with and dumbed down the interior.

They didn’t. Because the Taycan does not compete against a Tesla. At least not in Porsche’s eyes.

Hula

Porsche rejected Tesla's method of pre-heating the batteries since it's so detrimental to battery health. A whole lot of engineering went into the Taycan and 918 to manage battery heat. They won't throw that all away for a party trick.

acoste

5X increase in energy, 6X in power???? You are more clever than that, please.

In 2018 Elon said very much the same. "We could make a $25k car in 3 years" = 2021

acoste

Lots of interesting changes in the supercar segment. Many classics won't survive. Rimac bought Bugatti. Who would have thought that? Porsche will be fine, they are going to release a tri-motor soon, possibly after Plaid. My question is what will Lamborghini, Ferrari or McLaren do.

Elon had to exaggerate some of the numbers. Notice he didn't say how fast the Plaid is on the 1/4 mile. That's because Lucid announced it on Sunday that they have a car faster than 9.9s.
Lucid doesn't have an official time on Laguna Seca yet. The 1:33 was timed by a viewer.

Zcd1

You mean except for the part where he said it would do a 1/4 mile in less than 9 seconds..?

https://www.carscoops.com/2020/09/te...ile-range/amp/

CarMaven

You're right. Elon did mention a 1/4 mile time. Nonetheless, as I said earlier: We'll wait and see?
Just another way for Elon to talk about cars and feats-prematurely-IMO, I might add.

Petevb

I don’t agree. A few years ago I had an interesting discussion with a Porsche engineer. This was before the Taycan was announced but after Porsche had stopped making statements like “we will never make an electric car”. The engineer was lamenting a number of Tesla’s advantages, in particular the fact that wasn’t held to the same profit margins Porsche’s shareholders hold it to...

It’s clear Tesla is setting the yardstick everyone else is comparing themselves to. Porsche differentiates itself with a better quality, interior and driving experience but they, like every other manufacture, are also being compared on range, performance, etc.

I don’t believe Porsche chooses not to compete on range but instead that they can’t (while maintaining profit margin). Largely because their battery cost structure is currently too high. 350 mile range x nearly .5 kWh per mile x $200 per kWh battery cells alone + cooling, etc = $45k for the battery pack, far more expensive than any single part in any one of Porsche’s ICE cars. Something needs to give with that in the BOM if they want to maintain profit margins (which the engineer made clear was not negotiable). Meanwhile Tesla’s numbers are closer to 350 x .35 x $140 + = 20k, significantly less for the Model 3, and the market decrees they don’t need to make the same profits Porsche does (for now).

Battery prices are falling fast and hence Tesla’s advantage looks set to erode. In the process areas Porsche is stronger (chassis dynamics, quality, etc) will gain in importance. Personally I do shop the price bracket that puts Tesla in direct competition with Porsche. So far Tesla’s getting my money, however I do believe Porsche will get more competitive over time. In response Tesla seems set to move the range bar up to ~500 miles in order to maintain separation. We’ll see how much customers care- with a good charge network I suspect range is of diminishing value beyond ~300 miles to most people.

That said Porsche looks between a rock and a hard place on a number of fronts. Tesla’s got a big software advantage in my eyes (how current is your Porsche’s nav software?). It’s pushing model upgrades multiple times per year. It’s in a position to buy whatever experience it’s lacking (interior designers, suspension gurus, etc). It’s got a systemic battery advantage that’s likely to keep them ahead in terms of range and vehicle weight for the foreseeable future. And perhaps most importantly it’s fighting with the gloves off: it’s not trying to protect legacy products or high profit margins. I’m hopeful that Porsche can close the gap with future electric models but I think it’s in for a fight. Tesla “wasn’t competing with” BMW, Mercedes, etc a few years ago either. We know how that’s turned out...

AlexCeres

That’s taking the numbers out of context. It’s 5x increase in energy for a 3x or 4x increase in cell volume. So the net is closer to a 50% improvement.

most of these improvements are real and solid engineering enhancements that don’t require any unproven new chemistry. Nuts and bolts optimizations. While the headline cost reductions are for a $25K car, these improvements are tantalizing for higher performance vehicles. A 50% improved range means it’s possible to significantly reduce the battery pack size and still get 200mi. Less weight. A lot of possibilities.

anyway, being off by 2 years in a prediction for a 25k car that many people thought impossible seems like a pretty reasonable margin of error.

Elon is a lunatic, but folks are denigrating Tesla’s engineering at their industry’s peril. Porsche relying on Asian subcontractors for the most critical and differentiated aspect of their cars is a fundamental business vulnerability. There are huge opportunities in vertical integration here. The German government seems to slowly be getting the gist that sending the future of their industry to South Korea is just dumb. Slowly. Maybe too slowly.

AlexCeres

mostly agree except a 500mi range means they can ship a sportscar with half the weight and still have a larger range than the taycan. That is a massive advantage. Porsche’s position is better because Tesla has more important and more valuable markets to capture before really doing not-rocket sled style sports cars. The auto market is huge, and Tesla can just consume BMW and a few others whole without really impacting the bigger conglomerates.

acoste

The car at the moment can't do it under 9 sec. This is Elon bluffing. You think they measured it under 9 and Elon doesn't want to say a number? At the same time sharing Laguna Seca time to the last digits?

Here is Lucid's tweet from Sunday

Pokerhobo

It's past 9/24 already. I don't see what Lucid Air posted and nothing on their website. Lucid Air hasn't delivered a single car to customers yet so why don't you have the same pessimism with them?

Dyefrog

I wasn't trying to be clever. It's from Tesla's presentation. Make of it what you will. It's simply stating that the larger cell will naturally have more capacity.

Also, your above quote about the $25k Tesla is wrong.
June 2018, "I think we'll do a compact car in less than 5 years". 2018 +5=2023.